Author Topic: Chanting Prayers on the Subway (Read 11856 times)

Altair · « **on:** April 16, 2015, 04:24:36 pm »

[If I've been scarcer around the Cauldron the last few days, it will get even worse over the next 6 weeks. The spring songbird migration--my holy month of Ramadan, of sorts--has reached NYC, and morning hours devoted to scouring Central Park and the accompanying super-early wake-up times will likely preclude my active participation here for a while. Those super-early wake-ups are why I was able to witness the following, and why I ask the following question:]

Pre-dawn NYC subway car, populated by the usual working-class Jills and Joes of that ungodly hour, on their way to or from nursing jobs, construction sites, etc. The withdrawn silence of semi-sleep always prevails...

...except today. A guy starts chanting his religious prayer non-stop in a foreign tongue, clearly audible to everyone else. After 5 minutes, someone shouts for him to "Shut the f*ck up!" The guy next to him finds another seat at the first opportunity. The praying guy just keeps going. Is his behavior--

1) Annoying. He's disturbing everyone around him and violating the unspoken rules of the subway at that hour.

2) Tacky. One's private, personal religious devotions shouldn't be paraded in a public space, let alone one where everyone else is held hostage to it.

3) Unusual but acceptable. After all, buskers, panhandlers, and proselytizers routinely use the subway as a soapbox, and everyone tolerates them; why should religious practice be any different?

Choose.

Cabal · « **Reply #1 on:** April 16, 2015, 04:33:54 pm »

Quote from: Altair;174048

[If I've been scarcer around the Cauldron the last few days, it will get even worse over the next 6 weeks. The spring songbird migration--my holy month of Ramadan, of sorts--has reached NYC, and morning hours devoted to scouring Central Park and the accompanying super-early wake-up times will likely preclude my active participation here for a while. Those super-early wake-ups are why I was able to witness the following, and why I ask the following question:]

Pre-dawn NYC subway car, populated by the usual working-class Jills and Joes of that ungodly hour, on their way to or from nursing jobs, construction sites, etc. The withdrawn silence of semi-sleep always prevails...

...except today. A guy starts chanting his religious prayer non-stop in a foreign tongue, clearly audible to everyone else. After 5 minutes, someone shouts for him to "Shut the f*ck up!" The guy next to him finds another seat at the first opportunity. The praying guy just keeps going. Is his behavior--

1) Annoying. He's disturbing everyone around him and violating the unspoken rules of the subway at that hour.

2) Tacky. One's private, personal religious devotions shouldn't be paraded in a public space, let alone one where everyone else is held hostage to it.

3) Unusual but acceptable. After all, buskers, panhandlers, and proselytizers routinely use the subway as a soapbox, and everyone tolerates them; why should religious practice be any different?

Choose.

I would probably go with option 2! It's a bit tacky. I think ones religion is their own business, and shouldn't blatantly bother others with the practice of it.

HarpingHawke · « **Reply #2 on:** April 16, 2015, 04:43:17 pm »

Quote from: Altair;174048

1) Annoying. He's disturbing everyone around him and violating the unspoken rules of the subway at that hour.

2) Tacky. One's private, personal religious devotions shouldn't be paraded in a public space, let alone one where everyone else is held hostage to it.

3) Unusual but acceptable. After all, buskers, panhandlers, and proselytizers routinely use the subway as a soapbox, and everyone tolerates them; why should religious practice be any different?

Choose.

While at first I would've picked 1, just as a gut response, thinking about it further, I'd go with 2. No matter what religion this man is, it's tacky to pray publicly when not called to do so.

Lana288 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 16, 2015, 05:22:15 pm »

Quote from: Altair;174048

[If I've been scarcer around the Cauldron the last few days, it will get even worse over the next 6 weeks. The spring songbird migration--my holy month of Ramadan, of sorts--has reached NYC, and morning hours devoted to scouring Central Park and the accompanying super-early wake-up times will likely preclude my active participation here for a while. Those super-early wake-ups are why I was able to witness the following, and why I ask the following question:]

Pre-dawn NYC subway car, populated by the usual working-class Jills and Joes of that ungodly hour, on their way to or from nursing jobs, construction sites, etc. The withdrawn silence of semi-sleep always prevails...

...except today. A guy starts chanting his religious prayer non-stop in a foreign tongue, clearly audible to everyone else. After 5 minutes, someone shouts for him to "Shut the f*ck up!" The guy next to him finds another seat at the first opportunity. The praying guy just keeps going. Is his behavior--

1) Annoying. He's disturbing everyone around him and violating the unspoken rules of the subway at that hour.

2) Tacky. One's private, personal religious devotions shouldn't be paraded in a public space, let alone one where everyone else is held hostage to it.

3) Unusual but acceptable. After all, buskers, panhandlers, and proselytizers routinely use the subway as a soapbox, and everyone tolerates them; why should religious practice be any different?

Choose.

Um. Is there any possibility that he's deaf and has no idea that he's bothering anyone? Or might have some other handicap that causes him to be unperceptive of the annoyance he's causing?

Otherwise, I'm going to go with C. 'Cause, y'know, I honestly think that most people need to chill about the things other people do.

Jenett · « **Reply #4 on:** April 16, 2015, 05:30:24 pm »

Quote from: Altair;174048

2) Tacky. One's private, personal religious devotions shouldn't be paraded in a public space, let alone one where everyone else is held hostage to it.

Tacky. (I'd also consider buskers, panhandlers, and proselytisers actually in a subway car tacky for the same reason: on a platform where people can step away if they want/need to, it's a bit different than a car in motion.)

It's partly the content, but partly also that holding other people hostage to your choice of noise in a shared communal space is just not polite. (Where a quiet conversation, quiet prayers that can't be heard by the whole section of the car, etc. would be fine.)

Sefiru · « **Reply #5 on:** April 16, 2015, 06:40:31 pm »

Quote from: Jenett;174052

Tacky. (I'd also consider buskers, panhandlers, and proselytisers actually in a subway car tacky for the same reason: on a platform where people can step away if they want/need to, it's a bit different than a car in motion.)

It's partly the content, but partly also that holding other people hostage to your choice of noise in a shared communal space is just not polite. (Where a quiet conversation, quiet prayers that can't be heard by the whole section of the car, etc. would be fine.)

Agreed, and adding to this: buskers, panhandlers and proselytisers are all intending to interact with the people around them.

On a total tangent: "Buskers, Panhandlers and Proselytizers" sounds like a Dungeons&Dragons campaign set in a modern city.

Valeria Crowe · « **Reply #6 on:** April 16, 2015, 06:52:03 pm »

Quote from: Sefiru;174054

Agreed, and adding to this: buskers, panhandlers and proselytisers are all intending to interact with the people around them.

On a total tangent: "Buskers, Panhandlers and Proselytizers" sounds like a Dungeons&Dragons campaign set in a modern city.

They're the Orc equivalents, I take it? Kill 'em and take their stuff?

Jeez, that'd have to involve a GM who's reeeaaaaal stingy with loot drops.

RandallS · « **Reply #7 on:** April 16, 2015, 07:23:24 pm »

Quote from: Altair;174048

1) Annoying. He's disturbing everyone around him and violating the unspoken rules of the subway at that hour.

2) Tacky. One's private, personal religious devotions shouldn't be paraded in a public space, let alone one where everyone else is held hostage to it.

3) Unusual but acceptable. After all, buskers, panhandlers, and proselytizers routinely use the subway as a soapbox, and everyone tolerates them; why should religious practice be any different?

Choose.

Both 1 and 2. At that hour, he's annoying everyone around him. By praying loudly in public he's being tacky as well. However, #3 also applies to some extent: if buskers, panhandlers, and proselytizers are tolerated, praying doesn't seem much worse -- but it sounds like even these other tolerated groups have enough sense not to be annoying early in the morning.

MadZealot · « **Reply #8 on:** April 16, 2015, 09:30:59 pm »

Quote from: Altair;174048

1) Annoying. He's disturbing everyone around him and violating the unspoken rules of the subway at that hour.

2) Tacky. One's private, personal religious devotions shouldn't be paraded in a public space, let alone one where everyone else is held hostage to it.

3) Unusual but acceptable. After all, buskers, panhandlers, and proselytizers routinely use the subway as a soapbox, and everyone tolerates them; why should religious practice be any different?

Choose.

I'm going to go with #3.

Is it annoying? Tacky? I guess, but really... so what? Personally, I'm more likely to be annoyed by someone yelling into a cell phone. At any hour.
Nobody's being held hostage. Don't like the chanting? Move. Put on headphones. Sing louder than than them. Or sit and deal. It'll only get to you if you let it. Nobody is entitled to quiet communal space. Nobody has a right to not be annoyed.

"Oh, but, those people shouldn't bother others by being so religious in public." Now let's rephrase that. "Oh, but those people shouldn't bother others by being so gay in public." Now how's that sound?

Also, I wouldn't quite equate a lone chanter with a proselytizer or panhandler, as the latter make a regular practice of actively getting in people's space. Chanting on a train car is not on the same level of intrusiveness.

So, yeah, leaning heavily on #3. I'm a big proponent of free expression, even if it "makes someone uncomfortable." Your comfort is nobody else's responsibility. I demand the right to free expression in my own life; likewise, I demand and defend it for others.

Altair · « **Reply #9 on:** April 16, 2015, 10:42:08 pm »

Quote from: Sefiru;174054

Agreed, and adding to this: buskers, panhandlers and proselytisers are all intending to interact with the people around them.

I think this distinction is important, and it's what swung me away from 3, which is where I was initially heading (tolerance and all that). The apt analogy here is someone on the subway or other public transportation who's playing music off their iPhone without headphones; no one has a right to inflict their personal choices on others trapped in the vicinity, particularly where sound is concerned--sound is intrusive, distracting, and you can't just look the other way. I don't tolerate iPhone offenders for a second, always calling them on it. So why would I tolerate it just because it's religiously based? That's giving a privileged position to religion--special rights for them--which I'm loathe to do.

Someone playing their iPhone without earbuds/headphones, someone chanting their prayer, is distinctly different from busking, proselytizing, and panhandling because in those three an interaction with others is inherent: performing for someone, trying to convert someone, begging for help from someone. They can't happen without another party involved. Prayer/iPhone music is just for you; so why are you doing it in a manner and in a place that everyone else has to deal with it? That's just self-centered.

carillion · « **Reply #10 on:** April 16, 2015, 11:42:41 pm »

Quote from: MadZealot;174058

"Oh, but, those people shouldn't bother others by being so religious in public." Now let's rephrase that. "Oh, but those people shouldn't bother others by being so gay in public." Now how's that sound?

Umm, what? How are you equating someone making noise with someones sexual orientation? If someone is not saying anything, I no more know their religion or orientation. Also, one is born gay, one chooses a religion.

carillion · « **Reply #11 on:** April 16, 2015, 11:48:51 pm »

Quote from: Altair;174048

[If I've been scarcer around the Cauldron the last few days, it will get even worse over the next 6 weeks. The spring songbird migration--my holy month of Ramadan, of sorts--has reached NYC, and morning hours devoted to scouring Central Park and the accompanying super-early wake-up times will likely preclude my active participation here for a while. Those super-early wake-ups are why I was able to witness the following, and why I ask the following question:]

Pre-dawn NYC subway car, populated by the usual working-class Jills and Joes of that ungodly hour, on their way to or from nursing jobs, construction sites, etc. The withdrawn silence of semi-sleep always prevails...

...except today. A guy starts chanting his religious prayer non-stop in a foreign tongue, clearly audible to everyone else. After 5 minutes, someone shouts for him to "Shut the f*ck up!" The guy next to him finds another seat at the first opportunity. The praying guy just keeps going. Is his behavior--

1) Annoying. He's disturbing everyone around him and violating the unspoken rules of the subway at that hour.

2) Tacky. One's private, personal religious devotions shouldn't be paraded in a public space, let alone one where everyone else is held hostage to it.

3) Unusual but acceptable. After all, buskers, panhandlers, and proselytizers routinely use the subway as a soapbox, and everyone tolerates them; why should religious practice be any different?

Choose.

More like 4, just another day out in the world full of it's odd assortment of people. 'Acceptable' is kind of a loaded term:it implies one accepts something with good grace. I would *endure* it the same way as I endure other crazies 'cause to make a fuss just isn't worth it and one is never sure what brand of crazy they are dealing with. Often, one doesn't have the luxury of deciding what's acceptable to them, only how they decide to react (or not). What type of disruption is , to me, irrelevant ( though I love a really good flash mob routine).

MadZealot · « **Reply #12 on:** April 16, 2015, 11:51:06 pm »

Quote from: carillion;174062

Umm, what? How are you equating someone making noise with someones sexual orientation? If someone is not saying anything, I no more know their religion or orientation. Also, one is born gay, one chooses a religion.

That whooshing sound was the point going right over your head.

I'm not equating the two. I'm talking about how people take it upon themselves to be annoyed/offended, or judge something 'unacceptable', over how another person chooses to express themselves.
I swapped 'religious' with 'gay' to show how such sentiment is patently absurd.

carillion · « **Reply #13 on:** April 17, 2015, 12:35:09 am »

Quote from: MadZealot;174064

That whooshing sound was the point going right over your head.

I'm not equating the two. I'm talking about how people take it upon themselves to be annoyed/offended, or judge something 'unacceptable', over how another person chooses to express themselves.
I swapped 'religious' with 'gay' to show how such sentiment is patently absurd.

You think it went over my head? Or maybe it was just an inaccurate analogy as being gay is in no way a 'choice of expression'.
What people find unacceptable seems beyond the scope of the question which employed a very specific scenario with someone audibly expressing their religious beliefs, not just 'someone causing annoyance by being loud'.

MadZealot · « **Reply #14 on:** April 17, 2015, 01:09:40 am »

Quote from: carillion;174067

You think it went over my head?

Yes.

Quote

Or maybe it was just an inaccurate analogy as being gay is in no way a 'choice of expression'.

No, I'm not talking about choice at all. I'm perfectly aware orientation is not a choice, but I'd say how you express yourself in public is your choice, and your right. For instance, let's say, holding a partner's hand. Person A sees that, and says: Oh my gawwwd, that's like, soooo annoying. I'm totally OK with gay people, I just wish they'd not do that in public.

Later in the same day, Person A sees someone praying aloud where (perish the thought!) someone else might hear them. (and what if the praying person is a... Muslim! gasp!) Person A expresses the same feeling as before: I'm totally OK with religious people, I just wish they'd not do that in public.

In both cases my short response to Person A is: fuck your feelings.

Quote

What people find unacceptable seems beyond the scope of the question which employed a very specific scenario with someone audibly expressing their religious beliefs, not just 'someone causing annoyance by being loud'.

Yet the issue at the core of this scenario is how we define what is 'acceptable' vs what is 'annoying'. And how we allow others to define the same for us.

Would you refrain from praying to avoid clouding up Person A's expectation of quiet communal space?
Would you refrain from holding your partner's hand in public so Person A's space isn't polluted by something they don't want to see?
Person A is not being held hostage. Their expectation that a communal space be free of all (subjectively) unwelcome noise (or anything they might not want to see) is simply unrealistic. And if they really think they've a right to not be annoyed in a public space-- well, my slightly longer response to Person A would be: good luck with that.

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Author Topic: Chanting Prayers on the Subway (Read 11856 times)

Altair

Chanting Prayers on the Subway

Cabal

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HarpingHawke

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Lana288

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Jenett

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Sefiru

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Valeria Crowe

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RandallS

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MadZealot

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Altair

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carillion

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carillion

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MadZealot

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carillion

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