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Author Topic: Sokek, Horus the Elder, and Kom Ombo  (Read 8807 times)

Lana288

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Sokek, Horus the Elder, and Kom Ombo
« on: April 09, 2015, 11:56:45 am »
To get right to the point, I'm considering a kind of 'local worship' of the deities at Kom Ombo. I've been Google-fuing as best as I can, and I found some interesting information in Richard Wilkinson's "The Complete Temples of Ancient Egypt", but I haven't found anything on holidays- or other special days, for that matter. I'm also interested in the 'local mythology', if they had any.

So. I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about Kom Ombo, or where I could look to find the information?

Oh! And, of course, information on Horus the Elder and/or Sobek would be highly helpful.

Thanks!

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Re: Sokek, Horus the Elder, and Kom Ombo
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2015, 09:49:35 pm »
Quote from: Ian288;173901
To get right to the point, I'm considering a kind of 'local worship' of the deities at Kom Ombo. I've been Google-fuing as best as I can, and I found some interesting information in Richard Wilkinson's "The Complete Temples of Ancient Egypt", but I haven't found anything on holidays- or other special days, for that matter. I'm also interested in the 'local mythology', if they had any.

So. I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about Kom Ombo, or where I could look to find the information?

Oh! And, of course, information on Horus the Elder and/or Sobek would be highly helpful.

Thanks!

 
I'm doing something similar, as it happens, though not with Sobek's Kom Ombo cult, but with His cult at Shedet in the Faiyum. So I know more about Shedet than Kom Ombo, but I think I can still help you out a bit.

This is the most comprehensive list of festivals for Sobek that I've found. It isn't particularly focused on one particular cult centre, but it might give you some ideas? There's also a bunch of stuff I've posted over at Per Sebek that might be useful information about Sobek for you, though yes, it is more focused on Shedet than Kom Ombo.

It is a lot of work trying to reinstate those local cults, though, and I don't envy you the task, particularly because Sobek is relatively obscure, and information isn't always easy to find. I have found it very rewarding, though, and I'd be interested in seeing how you progress and what you can find about Kom Ombo. It's always good to know more about Sobek. :)
Sobekemiti | Hekatean Witch, Kemetic Orthodox Shemsu, Sobek Devotee | My pronouns are they/she

SatAset

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Re: Sokek, Horus the Elder, and Kom Ombo
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2015, 10:14:37 pm »
Quote from: Ian288;173901


So. I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about Kom Ombo, or where I could look to find the information?

Oh! And, of course, information on Horus the Elder and/or Sobek would be highly helpful.

 
If you do a search on Amazon, you may find some books on Kom Ombo.  Most of them however may be in French.  

A good book for information on Heru Wer (Horus the Elder) is House of Horus at Edfu by Barbara Watterson.  

Sobekemiti already linked to my post of Sobek Festivals (thanks!).  The sources are listed in that post.  Also, if it is says Lord of Ombos (that's Kom Ombo).  

The festival list for the Temple of Kom Ombo is in El-Sabban, Sherif. Temple Festival Calendars of Ancient Egypt. Wiltshire: Liverpool University Press, 2000.

Good luck!
I am the Goddess of Who I can Become. I mix the magic of the sorceress with the blade of a warrior. I walk the liminal pathways to see the face of the Goddess, both terrible and kind. As She stares back at me, I tremble in awe and ecstasy.  --SatAset

Darkhawk

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Re: Sokek, Horus the Elder, and Kom Ombo
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2015, 06:56:30 pm »
Quote from: SatAset;173908
The festival list for the Temple of Kom Ombo is in El-Sabban, Sherif. Temple Festival Calendars of Ancient Egypt. Wiltshire: Liverpool University Press, 2000.

 
Though it's a bit thin on the ground there.  (And, if it matters, my notes have it as a Greek Period calendar.)  Two calendars, one for Kom Ombo east, one for Kom Ombo west.

Correspondences with better-known Kemetic festivals are limited; there's the Opening of the Year, and an acknowledgement of the Great Djehwty festival, and that's about it.

Location-related stuff: several festivals marked "Founding at Gebu" and a "Resting in Gebu".  "Appearing beginning from Queny".  A number of references to "at the birth house".  A sequence that goes "Anointing by the prophets, divine fathers, and wabu", "Appearing, traversing the fields", and "Appearing, resting in the temple."

A four day sequence of "All the rituals in the hall" sounds like a party. ;) "Feats of d3rt for Heru" and "bringing of the willow" seem very specific and are adjacent days; the willow is Wesir's tree, so this is possibly a kingship pair or an ancestor pair.

Heru and Sobek appear to be primary honored; Hetharu gets multiple mentions.  We get "The Lord of the Two Lands" and Ta-sent-nofret several times, a one-off Khons festival, a one-off Amun appearance, and two festivals of standards (one specifically of the standard of Heru).

(These notes pulled from my notes from that book.)
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Lana288

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Re: Sokek, Horus the Elder, and Kom Ombo
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2015, 06:38:55 pm »
Quote from: Sobekemiti;173907
I might give you some ideas? There's also a bunch of stuff I've posted over at Per Sebek that might be useful information about Sobek for you, though yes, it is more focused on Shedet than Kom Ombo.

It is a lot of work trying to reinstate those local cults, though, and I don't envy you the task, particularly because Sobek is relatively obscure, and information isn't always easy to find. I have found it very rewarding, though, and I'd be interested in seeing how you progress and what you can find about Kom Ombo. It's always good to know more about Sobek. :)


Thanks so much for the links! Honestly, I've been surprised at how hard it is to find information about Sobek, as he *seemed* relatively popular in the pagan community. I'd kinda thought he was a bit better known than he is.

Fortunately, I enjoy the work. :) Plus, I honestly find the idea of trying to work with a specific set of local group of gods easier to mentally handle than the idea of trying to worship even a few deities from across the country and time line. (Not entirely logical, no.)
 
Quote from: SatAset;173908
If you do a search on Amazon, you may find some books on Kom Ombo.  Most of them however may be in French.

A good book for information on Heru Wer (Horus the Elder) is House of Horus at Edfu by Barbara Watterson.  

Sobekemiti already linked to my post of Sobek Festivals (thanks!).  The sources are listed in that post.  Also, if it is says Lord of Ombos (that's Kom Ombo).

The festival list for the Temple of Kom Ombo is in El-Sabban, Sherif. Temple Festival Calendars of Ancient Egypt. Wiltshire: Liverpool University Press, 2000.

Good luck!


Thank you! I'll be taking notes from the links, and I'll see about getting my hands on the books somehow. :)
 
Quote from: Darkhawk;173924
Though it's a bit thin on the ground there.  (And, if it matters, my notes have it as a Greek Period calendar.)  Two calendars, one for Kom Ombo east, one for Kom Ombo west.


The calendar thing makes sense. The temple was supposed to be divided into two halves, one being for Sobek and one being for Horus.

Quote from: Darkhawk;173924
Correspondences with better-known Kemetic festivals are limited; there's the Opening of the Year, and an acknowledgement of the Great Djehwty festival, and that's about it.

Location-related stuff: several festivals marked "Founding at Gebu" and a "Resting in Gebu".  "Appearing beginning from Queny".  A number of references to "at the birth house".  A sequence that goes "Anointing by the prophets, divine fathers, and wabu", "Appearing, traversing the fields", and "Appearing, resting in the temple."


These are awesome. Do you happen to know what time frames in the modern calendar they'd generally/almost correspond to?

Quote from: Darkhawk;173924
A four day sequence of "All the rituals in the hall" sounds like a party. ;) "Feats of d3rt for Heru" and "bringing of the willow" seem very specific and are adjacent days; the willow is Wesir's tree, so this is possibly a kingship pair or an ancestor pair.
Heru and Sobek appear to be primary honored; Hetharu gets multiple mentions.  We get "The Lord of the Two Lands" and Ta-sent-nofret several times, a one-off Khons festival, a one-off Amun appearance, and two festivals of standards (one specifically of the standard of Heru).

(These notes pulled from my notes from that book.)

 
I didn't know Amun was part of the local pantheon. That's something to remember. I remember reading that Hetharu (Hathor, right?) was worshiped locally as Sobek's wife, though, and that Khons was regarded as their son. (Or, at least, I think I remember this. I'll go check sources later today.) Do you happen to know anything about Ta-sent-nofret, by any chance?

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Re: Sokek, Horus the Elder, and Kom Ombo
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2015, 09:06:45 pm »
Quote from: Ian288;173932
Thanks so much for the links! Honestly, I've been surprised at how hard it is to find information about Sobek, as he *seemed* relatively popular in the pagan community. I'd kinda thought he was a bit better known than he is.

Fortunately, I enjoy the work. :) Plus, I honestly find the idea of trying to work with a specific set of local group of gods easier to mentally handle than the idea of trying to worship even a few deities from across the country and time line. (Not entirely logical, no.)
 

 
Yeah, I mean, that's why I started Per Sebek over a decade ago, because there was so little information online about Sobek, and I wanted to bring it all together in one place for anyone seeking Him. There's a lot more information around now than there was back then, but there's still not a lot. There was a point where I could literally count all the Sobek devotees I knew on one hand, though I think there might be a few more these days.

No, I can understand that. I found focussing on one particular cult centre gave me a much better focus for my research, worship, and the path I'm building. I got lucky that a book all about Sobek of Shedet's cult was published back in 2010, and that helped a lot in giving me some specific area information to use once I finally saved enough to buy it. He was paired more with Heru-sa-Aset in Shedet, rather than with Heru-Wer as He was in Kom Ombo, and that makes for some very interesting connections, particularly with regards to the Wesir mythos. There are some surviving hymns which invoke Sobek as Wesir's son, praising Him for gathering His father's bones and putting His body back together. Seriously fascinating stuff, particularly because it confirms some of the Sobek/Heru UPG I've gathered over the years.
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Darkhawk

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Re: Sokek, Horus the Elder, and Kom Ombo
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2015, 11:21:50 pm »
Quote from: Ian288;173932
These are awesome. Do you happen to know what time frames in the modern calendar they'd generally/almost correspond to?

One moment....

Okay, if one puts the Opening of the Year in early August as many moderns do, it looks something like:

Opening of the Year/Appearance of Heru and "Appearance of the god, Image of the feast of Thoth" in August.

Early September has (east side) a two day celebration in the temple of Heru, and (west side) a string of appearances - Heru, Sobek, the Lord of the Two Lands, a triple-whammy of Ta-sent-nofret, Hetharu, and Lord of the Two Lands at the birthhouse, a public appearance, "Founding at Gebu", and "Resting at the temple".  This is clearly-to-me a complex of related stuff about which I know nothing.

There's another founding at Gebu/resting at the temple pair in the first part of October, a Khons feast near the end of the month, and a Hetharu in Ombos festival at the end of the month.

"All the rituals in the hall" (east) falls near the beginning of November, and is four days worth, starting the day after an appearance of the Lord of the Two Lands (west), which is the first day of the Egyptian month.  Early-mid November has "appearing beginning from Queny", again obscure, but I note that it has the same date as a Ramesseside festival in Abydos (for Wesir and the Westerners), which seems more likely than the minor Khnum festival (from Esna) as being maybe relevant?  (I'm not having any luck tracking down what 'Queny' might be at the moment.)  "Resting in Gebu until the end of the month" falls on the same date as the Great Festival of Sokar (heart of the Mysteries of Wesir cycle) and I would assume might have some relationship.

Peret, starting in early December, kicks off with "Appearance of Heru and Hetharu" for four days (east side), on the third of which there is also an Appearance of Heru and Sobek (west side).  We get another trifecta of Ta-sent-nofret, Hetharu, and the Lord of the Two Lands at the birthhouse, followed by resting in the temple, a few days later on the west side.

The feast of the d3rt for Heru and the Bringing the Willow are early-mid January, and aside from that there are a couple of cryptic "appearing daily" and one I missed before, "Taking the haunch before him" mid-late January.  All I know on that is that meat offerings are definitionally proofs of victory over enemies and/or Set.  (A couple of days later at Esna, Edfu, and Dendera there are feasts of victory, mind.)

February has a lot of scattered "appearing daily".

March brings another trifecta at the birthhouse, this one specifically noted as "no trumpets or singing", followed by "dawn appearance at the birthhouse".  There is also an appearance of Sobek.

Shomu kicks off in early April with an appearance of Heru, both sides.  A few days later there is an appearance with spells for overthrowing A//pep, two days after that, "anointing by the prophets, divine powers, wabu", then "appearing, traversing the fields", then "appearing, resting in the temple".  Presumably an agricultural blessing and cleansing for the opening of the harvest season?  There is also a divine appearance at the new moon.

May has some scattered generic appearances and one Lord of the Two Lands appearance.

Around the beginning of June, 3 Shomu 1 has "appearance of the standard", and there's an "appearance of the gods" on 3 Shomu 9.

4 Shomu 1 has more specifically "appearance of the standard of Heru".

I really recommend getting a peer at the book yourself - I've only got dates information in my notes, and it's possible taht the records of this calendar include more details, including what the temple required for its offering sequence for each of them, which you might find useful to chew through.
 
Quote
I didn't know Amun was part of the local pantheon. That's something to remember.

I suspect that's a case of 'state god comes in for a visit'.  (Or possibly me misreading my Excel spreadsheet, as I didn't come across it in that datadump I don't think... ergh.)

Quote
Do you happen to know anything about Ta-sent-nofret, by any chance?

The German wikipedia claims it's a kenning for Hetharu, meaning "the beautiful sister", specifically from Kom Ombo in her formation of a triad with Heru-Wr.  I'd crosscheck in some of my books but I'm not up for a lot of getting up and sitting down at the moment, so you get my notes and the internets. ;P
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 11:23:45 pm by Darkhawk »
as the water grinds the stone
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we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Lana288

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Re: Sokek, Horus the Elder, and Kom Ombo
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2015, 01:38:19 am »
Quote from: Sobekemiti;173935
Yeah, I mean, that's why I started Per Sebek over a decade ago, because there was so little information online about Sobek, and I wanted to bring it all together in one place for anyone seeking Him. There's a lot more information around now than there was back then, but there's still not a lot. There was a point where I could literally count all the Sobek devotees I knew on one hand, though I think there might be a few more these days.


Well, I should quickly add that I said "Sobek seems popular" a bit thoughtlessly. I can't really think of many Sobek worshipers, now that I think about it. I sort of assumed that he was a popular god without thinking about it. :ashamed:

I love your blog, by the way. It's very elegant and easy to navigate. :)

Quote from: Sobekemiti;173935
No, I can understand that. I found focussing on one particular cult centre gave me a much better focus for my research, worship, and the path I'm building. I got lucky that a book all about Sobek of Shedet's cult was published back in 2010, and that helped a lot in giving me some specific area information to use once I finally saved enough to buy it. He was paired more with Heru-sa-Aset in Shedet, rather than with Heru-Wer as He was in Kom Ombo, and that makes for some very interesting connections, particularly with regards to the Wesir mythos. There are some surviving hymns which invoke Sobek as Wesir's son, praising Him for gathering His father's bones and putting His body back together. Seriously fascinating stuff, particularly because it confirms some of the Sobek/Heru UPG I've gathered over the years.


I actually don't know the difference between Heru-sa-Aset and Heru-Wer. Are they both "versions" of the same falcon god? Or are they completely separate deities?

The idea of him being Wesir's son is fascinating. Would it make him Heru's brother, then? Kom Ombo seems to have a kind of polarity going between the two of them, so the idea that they'd be close isn't surprising.

(Sorry if this post is a little hazy. It's late over here, and I'm about to head to bed. :P )

Lana288

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Re: Sokek, Horus the Elder, and Kom Ombo
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2015, 01:49:21 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;173938
One moment....

*snip*

I really recommend getting a peer at the book yourself - I've only got dates information in my notes, and it's possible taht the records of this calendar include more details, including what the temple required for its offering sequence for each of them, which you might find useful to chew through.

Wow! Thank you! No, I'll definitely be working to get the book- I love going through sources with pens and flashcards. I really appreciate that you went to all the effort of posting all of those up for me! :)

Quote from: Darkhawk;173938
I suspect that's a case of 'state god comes in for a visit'.  (Or possibly me misreading my Excel spreadsheet, as I didn't come across it in that datadump I don't think... ergh.)

That sounds highly probable, come to think of it. I'll shuffle that into storage too and see if anything becomes of it.
 
Quote from: Darkhawk;173938
The German wikipedia claims it's a kenning for Hetharu, meaning "the beautiful sister", specifically from Kom Ombo in her formation of a triad with Heru-Wr.  I'd crosscheck in some of my books but I'm not up for a lot of getting up and sitting down at the moment, so you get my notes and the internets. ;P

Oh no, that's fine. I think my book said something similar. There wasn't much on her there either, so I thought I'd check if you knew anything more. I hope you don't mind me picking your brain. :P
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 01:51:09 am by Lana288 »

Sobekemiti

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Re: Sokek, Horus the Elder, and Kom Ombo
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2015, 02:34:44 am »
Quote from: Ian288;173943
Well, I should quickly add that I said "Sobek seems popular" a bit thoughtlessly. I can't really think of many Sobek worshipers, now that I think about it. I sort of assumed that he was a popular god without thinking about it. :ashamed:

I love your blog, by the way. It's very elegant and easy to navigate. :)


Oh, no, that's fine. I mean, He was a significant god in ancient times, but not so much now. I don't know if it's just that other gods seem cooler, or if Sobek's just being much more picky about His followers. There are certainly more worshippers around now than there was a decade ago, so that's something. But yeah, He's not as popular as other Egyptian gods.

Thanks, I do try to keep the blog organised as it is meant to be a resource for others. Still got some work to do on it, but there's always work to do on it.

Quote from: Ian288;173943
I actually don't know the difference between Heru-sa-Aset and Heru-Wer. Are they both "versions" of the same falcon god? Or are they completely separate deities?

The idea of him being Wesir's son is fascinating. Would it make him Heru's brother, then? Kom Ombo seems to have a kind of polarity going between the two of them, so the idea that they'd be close isn't surprising.

(Sorry if this post is a little hazy. It's late over here, and I'm about to head to bed. :P )

 
How separate Heru-sa and Heru-Wer are really depends on how hard your polytheism is, I think. Egyptian gods are always a but fluid around the edges. I personally see Them as separate gods, but that's mostly down to experience and what feels right. This is why I was never that drawn to Kom Ombo, because when I was trying to find some sort of historical evidence for a Sobek/Heru-sa-Aset connection, Kom Ombo never seemed right. It wasn't the right Heru. But that's just my experience.

Actually, it seems Sobek was seen as Heru Himself, rather than His brother. There is an epithet for Sobek that runs, Sobek of Shedet, Heru who resides in Shedet, along with some of those hymn fragments, that suggests Sobek as Heru, rather than Sobek AND Heru. They also share many epithets. A temple to Aset-Renenutet makes it even more complicated, because Renenutet is the usual consort for Sobek here, rather than Hethert, and add in all the Heru-Sobek weirdness and the fact that it's Aset-Renenutet, and my brain just begins to hurt. Ow.

One of the really interesting things I read in that book on Sobek of Shedet is the author actually wonders what it would be like to call both Sobek and Heru in ritual, to which I said to the book, 'I've done that! It's awesome!'. Marco Zecchi, Sobek of Shedet, the most expensive book on Egypt I've ever bought, but worth every single penny because hardly anyone writes articles about Sobek, let alone publishes books on Him. :D Probably not so useful as a resource for a cult based around Kom Ombo, but as Shedet and the Faiyum were more Sobek's main cult centre, it might still be useful if you want to know more about Him.

Anyway. Shedet is fun, yo. Marshes and oases and the Delta and confusing Sobek-is-Heru-but-sometimes-He's-not funtiems. :D?
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Re: Sokek, Horus the Elder, and Kom Ombo
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2015, 08:19:03 pm »
Quote from: Sobekemiti;173946
Oh, no, that's fine. I mean, He was a significant god in ancient times, but not so much now. I don't know if it's just that other gods seem cooler, or if Sobek's just being much more picky about His followers. There are certainly more worshippers around now than there was a decade ago, so that's something. But yeah, He's not as popular as other Egyptian gods.

Thanks, I do try to keep the blog organised as it is meant to be a resource for others. Still got some work to do on it, but there's always work to do on it.
 
How separate Heru-sa and Heru-Wer are really depends on how hard your polytheism is, I think. Egyptian gods are always a but fluid around the edges. I personally see Them as separate gods, but that's mostly down to experience and what feels right.


*Gotcha*. I'll probably end up letting my UPG decide that if it comes up, then. (Oh, UPG...)

Quote from: Sobekemiti;173946
This is why I was never that drawn to Kom Ombo, because when I was trying to find some sort of historical evidence for a Sobek/Heru-sa-Aset connection, Kom Ombo never seemed right. It wasn't the right Heru. But that's just my experience.

Actually, it seems Sobek was seen as Heru Himself, rather than His brother. There is an epithet for Sobek that runs, Sobek of Shedet, Heru who resides in Shedet, along with some of those hymn fragments, that suggests Sobek as Heru, rather than Sobek AND Heru. They also share many epithets. A temple to Aset-Renenutet makes it even more complicated, because Renenutet is the usual consort for Sobek here, rather than Hethert, and add in all the Heru-Sobek weirdness and the fact that it's Aset-Renenutet, and my brain just begins to hurt. Ow.


Well, that's interesting. Is that anything like the Set-Heru or Sekhmet-Hathor combinations? Or is that particular deity (combo???) unique in of itself in that it's *not* a combo, but it's own whole thing? (*is running out of words*)

Quote from: Sobekemiti;173946
One of the really interesting things I read in that book on Sobek of Shedet is the author actually wonders what it would be like to call both Sobek and Heru in ritual, to which I said to the book, 'I've done that! It's awesome!'. Marco Zecchi, Sobek of Shedet, the most expensive book on Egypt I've ever bought, but worth every single penny because hardly anyone writes articles about Sobek, let alone publishes books on Him. :D Probably not so useful as a resource for a cult based around Kom Ombo, but as Shedet and the Faiyum were more Sobek's main cult centre, it might still be useful if you want to know more about Him.

Anyway. Shedet is fun, yo. Marshes and oases and the Delta and confusing Sobek-is-Heru-but-sometimes-He's-not funtiems. :D?

 
Lol! As I understand it, with the Egyptian gods it's less "Are they the same deity?" and more "When aren't they the same deity?". I'll do some research on Shedet too and see if I can't pick up the book you mentioned. There's always the possibility I'll end up using what I learn in my own practices. :)

Darkhawk

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Re: Sokek, Horus the Elder, and Kom Ombo
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2015, 10:55:02 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;173938
I suspect that's a case of 'state god comes in for a visit'.  (Or possibly me misreading my Excel spreadsheet, as I didn't come across it in that datadump I don't think... ergh.)

 
Misreading Excel spreadsheet, FWIW.  Figured that out while doing some of my own calendar crunching.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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