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Author Topic: Indiana & other RFRAs  (Read 3351 times)

Altair

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Indiana & other RFRAs
« on: March 30, 2015, 03:28:05 pm »
Well, since this is exploding on the news (or at least the news I follow), I figured we could discuss it here. It was a tossup whether to put this in Religious News or Political, really. And since similar laws are now percolating in several other states besides Indiana, we can discuss those here as well.

I'm talking Religious Freedom Restoration Acts (RFRAs).

They are largely a reaction to the success of the LGBT civil rights movement, in particular same-sex marriage (SSM). The idea from the Right's perspective is as follows: OK, we may lose at the Supreme Court on SSM, but we're going to make sure florists and cake bakers and town clerks don't have to violate their religious principles by giving them a legal basis for their refusal.

From the Left's perspective: This is unjust discrimination, plain and simple, that we used to see against blacks and Jews and...and we're not going back to those bad old days.

And since all of us here have a stake in religious freedom, however one defines it, I figured this would be an interesting discussion. I'll start...
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Altair

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Re: Indiana & other RFRAs
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2015, 03:47:36 pm »
Quote from: Altair;173586

I'm talking Religious Freedom Restoration Acts (RFRAs).


Indiana's governor, Mike Pence, just signed theirs into law. And boy, was he not prepared for the backlash:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/28/indiana-anti-lgbt-bill_n_6961188.html

Angie's List, with HQ in Indianapolis, canceled a planned expansion of their campus that was worth about $40 Mill and 1,000 jobs. That's gotta hurt!

So Pence went on the Sunday morning talk shows for damage control. Oops.

The full version:
The short version:

Being very anti-RFRA, I found this immensely entertaining; it sort of combined all the best bits from Sunday night prime-time, but on Sunday morning:

THE WALKING DEAD--Pence's zombie-like repetition of his talking points, and the likely state of his political career
REVENGE--the backlash!
MASTERPIECE THEATER--George Stephanopoulos's masterful interview
BETTER CALL SAUL--Indiana's only hope...
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The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

HeartShadow

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Re: Indiana & other RFRAs
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2015, 05:43:47 pm »
Quote from: Altair;173587
Indiana's governor, Mike Pence, just signed theirs into law. And boy, was he not prepared for the backlash:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/28/indiana-anti-lgbt-bill_n_6961188.html

Angie's List, with HQ in Indianapolis, canceled a planned expansion of their campus that was worth about $40 Mill and 1,000 jobs. That's gotta hurt!

So Pence went on the Sunday morning talk shows for damage control. Oops.

The full version:
The short version:

Being very anti-RFRA, I found this immensely entertaining; it sort of combined all the best bits from Sunday night prime-time, but on Sunday morning:

THE WALKING DEAD--Pence's zombie-like repetition of his talking points, and the likely state of his political career
REVENGE--the backlash!
MASTERPIECE THEATER--George Stephanopoulos's masterful interview
BETTER CALL SAUL--Indiana's only hope...

 
The thing about this crap that always boggles me is the "it's not about discrimination" claptrap.

WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE????  it's not discrimination because it's about "those" people?  it's not discrimination because .... it's religious?

Seriously, pull the other one.  it's got bells on it
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HarpingHawke

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Re: Indiana & other RFRAs
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2015, 08:13:52 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;173595
The thing about this crap that always boggles me is the "it's not about discrimination" claptrap.

WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE????  it's not discrimination because it's about "those" people?  it's not discrimination because .... it's religious?

I just got in a huge argument about this. The side that thinks RFRAs are a good idea (or at least the person I argued with) think this kind of thing is protecting against discrimination ??

Their case is that it's freedom of choice versus (what can be translated from their speak as) equality. Once again ?? Those two things are not mutually exclusive. IMO if someone's gonna open a store, they'd better be prepared to serve everybody, and not just the people they want to. It's really *not* protecting religious freedom; it is, as the news articles are quoting, a license to discriminate.

If this were done for churches (which I may have missed--please let me know if I did), then it (the little part of the bill talking about churches--not the whole thing) would be different, as they are *religious institutions.* But businesses that are not marketing their religion need to step off. They're not marrying people, they're serving them. It doesn't require caring either way about someone's gender identity and/or sexual/romantic orientation.

This whole thing feels icky to me.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 08:14:55 pm by HarpingHawke »
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HeartShadow

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Re: Indiana & other RFRAs
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2015, 09:25:50 pm »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;173599
I just got in a huge argument about this. The side that thinks RFRAs are a good idea (or at least the person I argued with) think this kind of thing is protecting against discrimination ??

Their case is that it's freedom of choice versus (what can be translated from their speak as) equality. Once again ?? Those two things are not mutually exclusive. IMO if someone's gonna open a store, they'd better be prepared to serve everybody, and not just the people they want to. It's really *not* protecting religious freedom; it is, as the news articles are quoting, a license to discriminate.

If this were done for churches (which I may have missed--please let me know if I did), then it (the little part of the bill talking about churches--not the whole thing) would be different, as they are *religious institutions.* But businesses that are not marketing their religion need to step off. They're not marrying people, they're serving them. It doesn't require caring either way about someone's gender identity and/or sexual/romantic orientation.

This whole thing feels icky to me.

 
churches have ALWAYS been allowed to choose who is and isn't allowed to join or be considered a member in good standing - that's part of what "freedom of association" is about.  It's ONLY when they start performing business-style dealings - renting out the church to non-members for weddings, f'ex - that there starts becoming issues.

but yes, the RFRA is all about freedom to say "but not THOSE PEOPLE they are ICKY" from a BUSINESS setting.  (possibly also a charity setting, but again - unless they receive federal funds, they are ALLOWED to discriminate on principle.  Only that which is /open to the public/ has to deal with this)

So, yes.  it's just about saying "but not them, they're icky".  Which one is allowed to THINK, but shouldn't be allowed to make business practices etc. with.
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RandallS

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Re: Indiana & other RFRAs
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2015, 10:14:52 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;173595
The thing about this crap that always boggles me is the "it's not about discrimination" claptrap.

I think they figure that if they tell a lie often enough and loud enough, everyone will believe it.  Of course it is about discrimination. "Separate but Equal" supposedly wasn't about discrimination either -- at least in the public statements of many of its proponents.
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Altair

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Re: Indiana & other RFRAs
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2015, 02:58:31 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;173606
I think they figure that if they tell a lie often enough and loud enough, everyone will believe it.


Not this time. The Stephanopoulos interview on Sunday morning was particularly damning.

So much has happened just in the last 24 hours, it's hard to keep up. This is the fastest-moving political train wreck I've had the pleasure of watching in a looooong time!
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The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Melamphoros

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Re: Indiana & other RFRAs
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2015, 06:02:20 pm »
Quote from: Altair;173629
Not this time. The Stephanopoulos interview on Sunday morning was particularly damning.

So much has happened just in the last 24 hours, it's hard to keep up. This is the fastest-moving political train wreck I've had the pleasure of watching in a looooong time!

 
When Indiana's economy tanks, do you think the people responsible for the law will deflect blame by saying "It wasn't us.  It was those gays.  They're mean like that?"
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Altair

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Re: Indiana & other RFRAs
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2015, 07:53:04 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;173632
When Indiana's economy tanks, do you think the people responsible for the law will deflect blame by saying "It wasn't us.  It was those gays.  They're mean like that?"

 
It's a given.
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The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

RandallS

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Re: Indiana & other RFRAs
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2015, 09:40:51 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;173632
When Indiana's economy tanks, do you think the people responsible for the law will deflect blame by saying "It wasn't us.  It was those gays.  They're mean like that?"

Of course. I'm noticed that the far right in the US is BIG on personal responsibility but only for others. If something they do goes wrong, it is always someone else's fault.
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Randall
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MadZealot

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Re: Indiana & other RFRAs
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2015, 10:36:36 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;173603
churches have ALWAYS been allowed to choose who is and isn't allowed to join or be considered a member in good standing - that's part of what "freedom of association" is about.  It's ONLY when they start performing business-style dealings - renting out the church to non-members for weddings, f'ex - that there starts becoming issues.

 
What if... what if LGBT folks in Indiana gathered together and formed a First Gay Church?
('course, they'd come up with a better name than that.)
And what if... they then claimed RFRA protection?
Paper beats rock.
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HeartShadow

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Re: Indiana & other RFRAs
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2015, 07:45:22 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;173644
What if... what if LGBT folks in Indiana gathered together and formed a First Gay Church?
('course, they'd come up with a better name than that.)
And what if... they then claimed RFRA protection?
Paper beats rock.

 
I'd go with the Anti-Bigot Brigade.  and post signs in the window saying that my religion forbids serving bigots.
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Altair

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Re: Indiana & other RFRAs
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2015, 11:25:33 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;173644
What if... what if LGBT folks in Indiana gathered together and formed a First Gay Church?
('course, they'd come up with a better name than that.)
And what if... they then claimed RFRA protection?
Paper beats rock.


I'm counting on the Satanic Temple to run with this. They could open a bakery and refuse to serve Christians.
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The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

HarpingHawke

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Re: Indiana & other RFRAs
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2015, 12:23:50 pm »
Quote from: Altair;173668
I'm counting on the Satanic Temple to run with this. They could open a bakery and refuse to serve Christians.

 
That would make my week.
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Altair

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Re: Indiana & other RFRAs
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2015, 12:39:51 pm »
Quote from: Altair;173586
And since similar laws are now percolating in several other states besides Indiana, we can discuss those here as well.

I'm talking Religious Freedom Restoration Acts (RFRAs).



BREAKING: The Governor of Arkansas just announced in a press conference that he is booting their RFRA back to their legislature to amend it so that it mirrors the federal RFRA.

(Arkansas was the next state up after Indiana; both houses of their legislature passed a RFRA similar to Indiana's--i.e., with subtle differences to the federal RFRA, differences that potentially open the door to anti-LGBT discrimination. Yesterday after final legislative approval, the Arkansas RFRA was sent to the governor, who had previously promised to sign it.)

In other words, Arkansas' governor wants to make sure they don't get screwed like Indiana. If they follow through and amend their RFRA to be exactly like the federal one, this will be a good thing, for them and for LGBT folks in that state.

The fact that yesterday Walmart, a huge economic force with its HQ in Arkansas, came out against Arkansas' RFRA must have played no small role in this...not to mention the spectacle of Indiana.

The Right is *seething.*
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The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs
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