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Author Topic: Redemption Is in All Great Religions  (Read 2464 times)

Altair

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Redemption Is in All Great Religions
« on: March 26, 2015, 12:18:58 pm »
Almost at the very end of a NY Times article (about the discovery and re-entombing of the remains of English king Richard III, which I found fascinating...but I digress) came this statement:

"redemption, a theme common to all great faiths"

Really?

That sounds like a suspiciously Christocentric view to me, but I'm curious what others think. And also how one might define "great" in this context. (Most widespread geographically? Boasting the most adherents?...)

Not really relevant, but here's a link to the article. The passage comes at the end of the next to last paragraph.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/27/world/europe/king-richard-iii-burial-leicester.html
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 12:19:58 pm by Altair »
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

HeartShadow

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Re: Redemption Is in All Great Religions
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2015, 12:42:28 pm »
Quote from: Altair;173409


 
I'd argue it's a common THEME, but not a common NECESSITY.  Because "I fucked up and clawed my way back to respectability" is a common HUMAN theme, so of course human religions would have it.

That doesn't make it a CENTRAL theme in religions though.

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Re: Redemption Is in All Great Religions
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2015, 03:35:38 pm »
Quote from: Altair;173409
"redemption, a theme common to all great faiths"

Really?

That sounds like a suspiciously Christocentric view to me


But 100% accurate.  

Also, all dying/rising gods are all saviour-gods, as they are all analogues of Jesus.  

Do you even Joseph Campbell, bro?
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Yei

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Re: Redemption Is in All Great Religions
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 05:24:37 pm »
Quote from: Altair;173409
Almost at the very end of a NY Times article (about the discovery and re-entombing of the remains of English king Richard III, which I found fascinating...but I digress) came this statement:

"redemption, a theme common to all great faiths"

Really?

That sounds like a suspiciously Christocentric view to me, but I'm curious what others think. And also how one might define "great" in this context. (Most widespread geographically? Boasting the most adherents?...)

Not really relevant, but here's a link to the article. The passage comes at the end of the next to last paragraph.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/27/world/europe/king-richard-iii-burial-leicester.html

 
HAHAHAHHA no.

Redemption, as religiously understood, is not a theme at all in my religion.

Even between religions that have 'redemptive' themes I would be cautious about placing them in the same category. Ideas which might appear similar at first may have very different theological underpinnings, and be very different in practice.

Altair

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Re: Redemption Is in All Great Religions
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2015, 06:14:02 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;173411


That doesn't make it a CENTRAL theme in religions though.


That's the thing; to zero in on that, when in many religions it isn't anywhere close to central, I think betrays a Christian-skewed worldview. (Where, if I'm not mistaken, it is THE central theme.)
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Altair

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Re: Redemption Is in All Great Religions
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2015, 06:17:17 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;173414
But 100% accurate.  

Also, all dying/rising gods are all saviour-gods, as they are all analogues of Jesus.  

Do you even Joseph Campbell, bro?


My bad. In future, I will endeavor to shoehorn everything into the Jesus Mask of the Hero with a Thousand Faces. ;)
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Altair

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Re: Redemption Is in All Great Religions
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2015, 06:20:52 pm »
Quote from: Yei;173415


Redemption, as religiously understood, is not a theme at all in my religion.



Well then, obviously, yours is not a great religion, then.

[I can't even type that with a straight face]
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

MadZealot

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Re: Redemption Is in All Great Religions
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2015, 06:27:53 pm »
Quote from: Altair;173417
My bad. In future, I will endeavor to shoehorn everything into the Jesus Mask of the Hero with a Thousand Faces. ;)

 
I prefer trying to cram everything into a can of Joseph Campbell Soup.  Who cares if a few letters are missing.
You have my sword
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And my... um... slacks.

carillion

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Re: Redemption Is in All Great Religions
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 09:17:55 pm »
Quote from: Altair;173409
Almost at the very end of a NY Times article (about the discovery and re-entombing of the remains of English king Richard III, which I found fascinating...but I digress) came this statement:

"redemption, a theme common to all great faiths"

Really?

That sounds like a suspiciously Christocentric view to me, but I'm curious what others think. And also how one might define "great" in this context. (Most widespread geographically? Boasting the most adherents?...)

Not really relevant, but here's a link to the article. The passage comes at the end of the next to last paragraph.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/27/world/europe/king-richard-iii-burial-leicester.html


"Redemption beyond the grave". The writer ought to have a gander at the ancient Greek beliefs about life after death. And I would argue , given the extent of the Greek empire but more importantly it's influence on other empires ( notably the Roman Empire) that it was definitly a 'Great' religion. I am inclined to agree with H.D.F. Kitto that it was a reaction *away* from the aspects of indifference in Greek beliefs that drove people to seek a more 'personal' and ...kinder... system such as Christianity.

Megatherium

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Re: Redemption Is in All Great Religions
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 09:56:15 pm »
Quote from: Altair;173409
Almost at the very end of a NY Times article (about the discovery and re-entombing of the remains of English king Richard III, which I found fascinating...but I digress) came this statement:

"redemption, a theme common to all great faiths"

Really?

That sounds like a suspiciously Christocentric view to me, but I'm curious what others think. And also how one might define "great" in this context. (Most widespread geographically? Boasting the most adherents?...)

Not really relevant, but here's a link to the article. The passage comes at the end of the next to last paragraph.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/27/world/europe/king-richard-iii-burial-leicester.html


From what I can tell of pre-Christian Germanic religious traditions, there does not seem to have been any strong notion of redemption or salvation. Religious life in these cultures seems to have revolved around what might be termed "worldly" goals -  basically, survival and prosperity. At death, there seems to have some notion that an individual retained their membership and influence in their community. Death, perhaps, in this view of the world did not lead to transcendence of one's worldly life but rather just a shift to a different type of role.

I think that this type of viewpoint MAY have been common in many parts of the world, and that it has been supplanted in some cases by religious traditions with a strong notion of, let's say, "transcendence"? Salvation for Christians, Enlightenment for Buddhists, etc.

Of course, the author's use of "all great faiths" may, consciously or not, specifically exclude those religious traditions without a strong transcendental goal. In which case, they might as well have said "redemption is a theme common to all religions that have redemption as a common theme."
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Yei

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Re: Redemption Is in All Great Religions
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2015, 05:24:35 pm »
Quote from: Altair;173418
Well then, obviously, yours is not a great religion, then.

[I can't even type that with a straight face]

 
Great religion, or the Greatest religion?

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Re: Redemption Is in All Great Religions
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2015, 05:27:46 pm »
Quote from: Megatherium;173424
From what I can tell of pre-Christian Germanic religious traditions, there does not seem to have been any strong notion of redemption or salvation. Religious life in these cultures seems to have revolved around what might be termed "worldly" goals -  basically, survival and prosperity. At death, there seems to have some notion that an individual retained their membership and influence in their community. Death, perhaps, in this view of the world did not lead to transcendence of one's worldly life but rather just a shift to a different type of role.

I think that this type of viewpoint MAY have been common in many parts of the world, and that it has been supplanted in some cases by religious traditions with a strong notion of, let's say, "transcendence"? Salvation for Christians, Enlightenment for Buddhists, etc.

Of course, the author's use of "all great faiths" may, consciously or not, specifically exclude those religious traditions without a strong transcendental goal. In which case, they might as well have said "redemption is a theme common to all religions that have redemption as a common theme."

 
Mind you, not all forms of 'transcendence' as you put it, are similar. While I'm not too familiar with the details of either (and I, therefore, could be wrong), Enlightenment and Salvation seem to be very different theologically, and could have quite different social consequences.

Altair

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Re: Redemption Is in All Great Religions
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2015, 06:06:02 pm »
Quote from: Yei;173450
Great religion, or the Greatest religion?


I wasn't being serious. I was mocking the NY Times' reporter's remark, that redemption is "a theme common to all great faiths." According to that statement--and you can probably guess what I think of it--your Mexican reconstructionism could not be considered a "great faith"--however that may be defined.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Yei

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Re: Redemption Is in All Great Religions
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2015, 06:46:38 pm »
Quote from: Altair;173453
I wasn't being serious. I was mocking the NY Times' reporter's remark, that redemption is "a theme common to all great faiths." According to that statement--and you can probably guess what I think of it--your Mexican reconstructionism could not be considered a "great faith"--however that may be defined.

 
Actually I was making a Stephen Colbert reference.

Like when he would ask his guests if George W. Bush was 'a great president' or 'the greatest president'.

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Re: Redemption Is in All Great Religions
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2015, 07:19:12 pm »
Quote from: Yei;173451
Mind you, not all forms of 'transcendence' as you put it, are similar. While I'm not too familiar with the details of either (and I, therefore, could be wrong), Enlightenment and Salvation seem to be very different theologically, and could have quite different social consequences.

 
Oh absolutely! "Salvation" and "Enlightenment" are quite different goals, with widely varying theological assumptions underpinning them. The only reason why I referred to them both as "transcendent" is that they are both goals that imagine a purpose for human existence beyond meeting basic biological needs. And I think there is certainly a role in the human experience for ideas such as this, and that they have been useful ideas for many, many people both historically and today.

That said, I do think it is quite fine for a person's religious/spiritual life to focus on
less transcendent, day-to-day sort of things: a full stomach, health, and meaningful relationships with one's family, friends, and community. I think humans are a diverse enough species that both transcendent and um, "non-transcendent", religions can and should exist.
My views are one that speaks to freedom.
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