Author Topic: Working with Yoruba Orishas as an eclectic pagan (Read 3701 times)

Marjie · « **on:** March 02, 2015, 04:00:02 am »

So I'm an eclectic Pagan, and I don't practice Yoruba, but I work with Goddesses and Gods from a variety of cultures, and I am very interested in working with Yoruba Orishas; particularly Eleggua, whom I feel I have had some communications with. However, I realize this is a very touchy subject because (a) Yoruba is a tradition that still exists today, and (b) Yoruba religion and culture was seriously damaged by colonialism. I've seen some understandable hostility towards western appropriation of Orishas here and there online; for example:

"If you’re going to work with the orishas, then do so through the religion THEY passed down to us, not in an invention you created out of European traditions and techniques." (from http://santeriachurch.org/whats-the-difference-between-legba-eleggua-eshu-and-exu/)

Admittedly, that quote is slightly out of context, as this person was upset about people confusing Eleggua with spirits of other cultures with similar sounding names. But you get the idea, Yoruba culture gets appropriated and conflated a lot, and it's still recovering from colonialism.

As a white American who doesn't even practice Yoruba, I am very cautious about working with Orishas, and I want to be as respectful as possible; but I'm not sure where to draw the line on what is necessary for respect: presumably somewhere between actually converting to Yoruba (not really my intention) and just communicating with the Orishas as I would with any other Goddesses and Gods. Yoruba tradition puts a lot of emphasis on referring to initiated Babalawos (a priest-like title) for divination and advice on what to give to the Orishas as offerings and whatnot; which I'd be willing to do once in a while, but I'm not super into priests that tell me what to do (maybe that's really my problem :whis:).

Does this seem like an appropriate thing for me to explore? Has anyone else had such appropriation concerns? If I do decide to continue, should I be finding practitioners of Yoruba and learning from them, or should I just keep this sort of thing to myself?

Gilbride · « **Reply #1 on:** March 02, 2015, 08:15:10 am »

Quote from: Marjie;172110

"If you’re going to work with the orishas, then do so through the religion THEY passed down to us, not in an invention you created out of European traditions and techniques."

I would suggest that this really is the best advice in this context. Lilith Dorsey on Patheos is a Santeria initiate and a Vodun priestess and is friendly and open to pagans from European traditions, she can probably offer more comprehensive advice.

Marjie · « **Reply #2 on:** March 02, 2015, 06:48:52 pm »

Quote from: Gilbride;172122

I would suggest that this really is the best advice in this context. Lilith Dorsey on Patheos is a Santeria initiate and a Vodun priestess and is friendly and open to pagans from European traditions, she can probably offer more comprehensive advice.

Thanks for the response. I think I had read some of Lilith's articles before, but I didn't know she was a santería initiate. I will check her out more.

Why do you feel that the quote I gave is the best advice in this context? Is this really so fundamentally different from the other various multicultural Gods many pagans work with?

SunflowerP · « **Reply #3 on:** March 02, 2015, 07:19:58 pm »

Quote from: Marjie;172198

Why do you feel that the quote I gave is the best advice in this context? Is this really so fundamentally different from the other various multicultural Gods many pagans work with?

Quite possibly, not just because it's a living tradition, but also because, while the orishas might fit your (and my) notions of what makes a deity, they are not generally considered to be deities in Santeria. (Likewise the lwa in Vodou; I think this is the case with other Afro-Diasporic religions, but I'm not certain.)

That's not inherently a reason to not work with them - but it is an instance of why it's a very good idea to get 'insider' advice.

Sunflower

Marjie · « **Reply #4 on:** March 02, 2015, 07:21:34 pm »

Quote from: SunflowerP;172205

That's not inherently a reason to not work with them - but it is an instance of why it's a very good idea to get 'insider' advice.

Yeah, I can get behind that.

Jabberwocky · « **Reply #5 on:** March 02, 2015, 07:24:56 pm »

Quote from: Marjie;172110

Does this seem like an appropriate thing for me to explore? Has anyone else had such appropriation concerns? If I do decide to continue, should I be finding practitioners of Yoruba and learning from them, or should I just keep this sort of thing to myself?

Do that, but recognise that they have an absolute right to refuse to help.

Marjie · « **Reply #6 on:** March 02, 2015, 07:26:37 pm »

Quote from: Jabberwocky;172208

Do that, but recognise that they have an absolute right to refuse to help.

Of course; I've heard that this is a problem. I'm not sure what is going on, or who is refusing to take no for an answer from a complete stranger.

SunflowerP · « **Reply #7 on:** March 02, 2015, 07:33:33 pm »

Quote from: Marjie;172209

Of course; I've heard that this is a problem. I'm not sure what is going on, or who is refusing to take no for an answer from a complete stranger.

The sense of entitlement that sometimes comes of being of a socially-constructed group that is accustomed to getting to gank other people's stuff.

Sunflower

Marjie · « **Reply #8 on:** March 02, 2015, 08:03:29 pm »

Quote from: SunflowerP;172211

The sense of entitlement that sometimes comes of being of a socially-constructed group that is accustomed to getting to gank other people's stuff.

Sunflower

Yeah, that's what I've heard. It seems pretty horrific. I like to think that I wouldn't do that even without being reminded not to. I guess people expect those of marginalized groups to jump at any opportunities to "further their cause". The closest thing to a marginalized group that I belong to is woman in tech; from that relatively limited experience I've gotten the picture that that isn't the case.

Well, anyway; I was originally interested in Yoruba back in college. For some reason, my interest back then petered out. But I think that it turned out for the best, since I'm not sure that I would have had the sensitivity to approach it correctly back then. But I think I am ready now. I won't go too far without speaking with an initiated practitioner I think, and maybe getting an Ifá reading.

Gilbride · « **Reply #9 on:** March 02, 2015, 10:42:47 pm »

Quote from: Marjie;172198

Why do you feel that the quote I gave is the best advice in this context? Is this really so fundamentally different from the other various multicultural Gods many pagans work with?

Yes, it's different. Things can't be separated from their context, and in this case the context includes the history of slavery and all the horrors associated with that. It's very important to be respectful and let the people who own that tradition take the lead. That isn't equivalent to the situation with ancient Celtic, Greek or Norse deities.

Altair · « **Reply #10 on:** March 02, 2015, 10:53:00 pm »

Quote from: Marjie;172110

Does this seem like an appropriate thing for me to explore? Has anyone else had such appropriation concerns?

I think extreme reticence on this is called for. I'm African American--arguably possibly with ancestral ties to this religion--and as fascinated as I am by the Orishas, even I won't go there. Because it's not my culture.

And that's the thing: I would find it deeply disturbing to excise the religion from its cultural context, which is what you'd have to do to incorporate the Orishas into an eclectic Western neopagan religious structure. Yes, the Orishas have migrated out of Africa and transmogrified--so a change of context for them isn't unheard of--but that happened organically, as people who were already worshipping them carried their culture (usually by being dragged away in chains) with them.

Poaching them from the perch of one's completely different cultural context? Don't go there.

Marjie · « **Reply #11 on:** March 02, 2015, 11:48:42 pm »

Quote from: Altair;172236

I think extreme reticence on this is called for. I'm African American--arguably possibly with ancestral ties to this religion--and as fascinated as I am by the Orishas, even I won't go there. Because it's not my culture.

And that's the thing: I would find it deeply disturbing to excise the religion from its cultural context, which is what you'd have to do to incorporate the Orishas into an eclectic Western neopagan religious structure. Yes, the Orishas have migrated out of Africa and transmogrified--so a change of context for them isn't unheard of--but that happened organically, as people who were already worshipping them carried their culture (usually by being dragged away in chains) with them.

Poaching them from the perch of one's completely different cultural context? Don't go there.

Thanks for your advice. I definitely agree that caution, respect, and a thorough study of Yoruban culture is fundamentally necessary if I were to continue (especially because of the horrific history of slavery) - and I totally understand why you might not want to get involved. I'm not sure if I agree that one should stick to only their own culture. I don't consider my practice to be "Western with a capital W, end of story". Obviously it is built on my understanding of the world, which is pretty western, but I don't think that means that I can't open up to the perspectives of other cultures. I sincerely hope that I can do this without poaching.

WanderingWaters2011 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 06, 2015, 03:17:53 am »

Quote from: Marjie;172110

Does this seem like an appropriate thing for me to explore? Has anyone else had such appropriation concerns? If I do decide to continue, should I be finding practitioners of Yoruba and learning from them, or should I just keep this sort of thing to myself?

HONESTLY SPEAKING.......

Honoring Orisha in their sacred abodes or places in Nature is rarely discouraged these days in the Community. So an uninitiated newbie may be encouraged to seek out Oshun by the river or Yemaya at the ocean or hnor Eleggua at a crossroads...maybe leaving a smal offering of some kind you know is pleasing to that Orisha. Almost anyone in the Community would encourage a newbie to get in touch with their Ancestors as, regardless of ones nationality, it is considered an important component of Orisha veneration. Simpleness is also strongly encouraged. If you want to go as far as keep an altar to an Orisha in your home, a candles, some flowers, maybe some incense will do. More important is your intent...pouring your heart and your feelings to the Orisha, honestly expressing you would like to develop a relationship with Them. A small portion of the Community will write you off right away for being a Caucasian seeking out Orisha but to many that in itself need not be a hindrance to working with Orisha. Western thinking, though, is a huge turn off to a goodly number in the Religion. I myself reacted a little when you were talking about how being told by a Priest what to do does not sit well with you. A proper Priest seeks not to tell you what to do but only offers what the Orisha and Egun are asking of you and advising you to do. It is generally believed if you are drawn to Orisha, it is because with Their aid you are to fulfill some destiny, achieve some goal in your life that will be enriching to you, benefit in some way in communing with Them..and Babalawos are trained in how to help the seeker become aware of what They want for you and how best to proceed.

If you do seek out a Reading and carefully choosing the proper Priest to to do this is of ytmost importance (it should be someone you feel you can trust with your spiritual affairs) it is best to empty the mind from all preconcieved notions and expectations and just soak in the experience. Leting your mind, heart, and soul take in the experience is also important in Orisha worship. If there are any more specific concerns you may have, do not be afraid to ask.

Altair · « **Reply #13 on:** March 06, 2015, 11:25:16 am »

Quote from: WanderingWaters2011;172502

HONESTLY SPEAKING.......

Honoring Orisha in their sacred abodes or places in Nature is rarely discouraged these days in the Community. So an uninitiated newbie may be encouraged to seek out Oshun by the river or Yemaya at the ocean or hnor Eleggua at a crossroads...maybe leaving a smal offering of some kind you know is pleasing to that Orisha. Almost anyone in the Community would encourage a newbie to get in touch with their Ancestors as, regardless of ones nationality, it is considered an important component of Orisha veneration. Simpleness is also strongly encouraged. If you want to go as far as keep an altar to an Orisha in your home, a candles, some flowers, maybe some incense will do. More important is your intent...pouring your heart and your feelings to the Orisha, honestly expressing you would like to develop a relationship with Them. A small portion of the Community will write you off right away for being a Caucasian seeking out Orisha but to many that in itself need not be a hindrance to working with Orisha. Western thinking, though, is a huge turn off to a goodly number in the Religion. I myself reacted a little when you were talking about how being told by a Priest what to do does not sit well with you. A proper Priest seeks not to tell you what to do but only offers what the Orisha and Egun are asking of you and advising you to do. It is generally believed if you are drawn to Orisha, it is because with Their aid you are to fulfill some destiny, achieve some goal in your life that will be enriching to you, benefit in some way in communing with Them..and Babalawos are trained in how to help the seeker become aware of what They want for you and how best to proceed.

If you do seek out a Reading and carefully choosing the proper Priest to to do this is of ytmost importance (it should be someone you feel you can trust with your spiritual affairs) it is best to empty the mind from all preconcieved notions and expectations and just soak in the experience. Leting your mind, heart, and soul take in the experience is also important in Orisha worship. If there are any more specific concerns you may have, do not be afraid to ask.

I'm very glad someone who actually worships the Orishas took the time to give a thoughtful response, from which we can all benefit. Thanks.

Also, is saying "Orishas" as the plural for the goddesses and gods of the pantheon incorrect?

Marjie · « **Reply #14 on:** March 06, 2015, 03:05:33 pm »

Quote from: WanderingWaters2011;172502

Honoring Orisha in their sacred abodes or places in Nature is rarely discouraged these days in the Community.

Thank you so much for this wonderful advice. It shows the fundamental approach of Yoruba practice very well.

Quote from: WanderingWaters2011;172502

Western thinking, though, is a huge turn off to a goodly number in the Religion. I myself reacted a little when you were talking about how being told by a Priest what to do does not sit well with you.

This is a great clarification on how Yoruba mentality is different from American and Christian mentality... and how that can lead to misunderstandings and offense. From growing up in Christian churches with forceful leadership - and also from living in such an individualistic society, and being a bit stubborn myself - I have learned to see priest figures as oppressive and preventing me from pursuing my own interpretation and learning, but clearly Babalawos lead a much different role in Yoruba. Thank you very much for this explanation, and I apologize if my statement was offensive. In studying Yoruba I usually can't tell what my faulty assumptions will be, but the process is already helping me to see them clearly and correct them.

Quote from: WanderingWaters2011;172502

If you do seek out a Reading and carefully choosing the proper Priest to to do this is of ytmost importance (it should be someone you feel you can trust with your spiritual affairs) it is best to empty the mind from all preconcieved notions and expectations and just soak in the experience. Leting your mind, heart, and soul take in the experience is also important in Orisha worship. If there are any more specific concerns you may have, do not be afraid to ask.

I do want to get a reading, although I may not be quite ready yet; I have so much learning to do. It may be a difficult task to find a Babalawo. I haven't found any in my area at all, so I am assuming I will need to fly somewhere to do so. Although most likely there are more of them around that don't have an internet presence; in any case, I'm not sure how to find them, but I will keep looking.

Thanks again for your advice!

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Author Topic: Working with Yoruba Orishas as an eclectic pagan (Read 3701 times)

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Working with Yoruba Orishas as an eclectic pagan

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