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Altair

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Seeing Signs: Are We Narcissists?
« on: February 28, 2015, 11:22:06 pm »
First of all, read this entire movie review (of--wait for it!--Christian Mingle: The Movie), just because it's so damn funny.

http://uproxx.com/filmdrunk/2015/02/christian-mingle-the-movie-is-an-unintentional-parody-of-whiteness/

Second, this part of the review struck me:
Quote
God, represented by a celestial ray of sunshine (of course), beams through Gwyneth’s window to wake her. “Leave me alone!” she shouts at the Heavens, drawing the curtains. Which “God” blows open again with a sound effect-aided gust of wind. “Ugh, you are so obvious!” Gwyneth says.

I guess it’s supposed to represent Gwyneth wrestling with her faith, but all I could think of was what a nightmare person someone who thought everything in life, down to the smallest ray of sunshine or gust of breeze was God trying to speak directly to them. That news report about a genocide in Uganda was probably just God’s way of telling me not to eat the rest of this quesadilla!


Many of us here, myself included (in my half-assed attempts at augury), see signs in otherwise ordinary occurrences. Is this inherently narcissistic? Is the possible narcissism involved determined by how often we see these things as personal messages to us, or how deeply we are certain that it's a message?

Is there a way to perceive signs that *isn't* narcissistic?
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Liadine (dragonflyeyes)

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Re: Seeing Signs: Are We Narcissists?
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2015, 11:43:12 pm »
Quote from: Altair;171995
Is there a way to perceive signs that *isn't* narcissistic?

 
I don't really pay much attention to things that may/may not be signs in my life, but my thought on the matter has always been 'if seeing [thing x] is a sign, the sign doesn't come from [thing x] being somewhere where I can notice it JUST FOR ME, but from my being in a place to see the thing', which I don't think is inherently narcissistic. (If that makes any sense, I'm not thinking too clearly right now.)
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Faemon

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Re: Seeing Signs: Are We Narcissists?
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2015, 11:59:03 pm »
Quote from: Altair;171995
Many of us here, myself included (in my half-assed attempts at augury), see signs in otherwise ordinary occurrences. Is this inherently narcissistic? Is the possible narcissism involved determined by how often we see these things as personal messages to us, or how deeply we are certain that it's a message?

Is there a way to perceive signs that *isn't* narcissistic?


We're all limited by what we can experience, what we have experienced, how we can interpret that experience, how to communicate that experience, and how to understand experiences as communicated to us.

When my disposition swings towards agnostic and quits projecting patterns and attributing meaning to the events that I experience, and merely take the event as an event impersonally, I am still limited by myself. It isn't more freeing or less freeing than being able to make associations between the events and personal significance.

Same with hearing others out and empathizing with them. Sometimes with some people we're on the same wavelength, sometimes not. We're each limited by ourselves.

So, when it comes to the belief in a personal deity, in some aspect perhaps it is cultural. But I would also trust that people who hold to it, who are moved to such a thing by their subconscious, do need to do so in order to fulfill some unconscious need…not a narcissistic want or entitlement. (Although, of course, I have no way of knowing that except by their word and my own resources that I'm willing/able to deplete on their account…and the development of my philosophy is leading me to how there may not actually be a gap between the opportunity to better oneself and the actual bettering of oneself except by the retroactive continuity of regretful hindsight.)

Being able to attribute meaning is healthy. Being able to apply that meaning to the development of one's personality and personal life is…I think, one major point?

So, if I do meet a person who I see as making everything about themselves: every unrelated event as a sign that applies to their life, everything I say as somehow about them, everything commentary in news or entertainment media as a command, well, I might get annoyed if it's swallowing up my time and energy…but I need to also believe and understand that they're working through a major emotional injury or else following their conditioning or something.

Considering whether deities exist and do care enough to interfere (or are able to interfere if only through communication)…well, I'm not a deity, and I haven't quite got that sorted, as I've spoken about Loki here and here so I have a pending opinion on that just in how they're experienced, not yet on how the divine operates (and their operations would be an experience.)
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Jabberwocky

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Re: Seeing Signs: Are We Narcissists?
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2015, 12:01:31 am »
Quote from: Altair;171995

Many of us here, myself included (in my half-assed attempts at augury), see signs in otherwise ordinary occurrences. Is this inherently narcissistic? Is the possible narcissism involved determined by how often we see these things as personal messages to us, or how deeply we are certain that it's a message?

Is there a way to perceive signs that *isn't* narcissistic?


I think a lot of it comes down to how often the signs seem to reinforce the-path-of-doing-whatever-the-fuck-I-was-going-to-do-anyway.  (I stole that term from RPG circles, but it's still valid I think).

Not that there's anything wrong with doing work or interpreting signs for the purposes of self-validation.  But I think that kind of thing is best tempered with a level of self awareness.
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Faemon

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Re: Seeing Signs: Are We Narcissists?
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2015, 12:36:43 am »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;172000
I think that kind of thing is best tempered with a level of self awareness.


That would be impossible to tell from the outside whether a person has it or doesn't have it, though, right?

From what I've gathered, the difference between augury and narcissism is that the latter seems to be mundane, such as having a conversation and making everything about one's own self. On the other hand, augury relies on intuition as dissociated from the conscious self. I suppose if you trust in that other-than-conscious instinct/intuition, and as you say check it against self-awareness, then you're probably fine.

But it depends on who you show your findings to, really. The criticism in the review seems to be in the observation that Signs From God has become such a mundane thing that interpretation must now only have come from Gwyneth's egoism or something? I suppose that mundanity is inevitable in a religious model where a personal deity is also omni-trifecta, but it doesn't necessarily mean that somebody who lives in that paradigm would interpret a mass genocide as merely a sign to eat less quesadilla. There could be, in a disagreement, a lot of, "You don't know the true character of God because you don't have Jesus in your heart" "no u!" But it might not necessarily be a one-upmanship of How Present is the Omnipresent in My Own Personal Life. I think it can be, but I think it really depends on how narcissistic the person is, enabled by the religious paradigm.
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Re: Seeing Signs: Are We Narcissists?
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2015, 02:41:35 am »
Quote from: Faemon;172001
That would be impossible to tell from the outside whether a person has it or doesn't have it, though, right?

From what I've gathered, the difference between augury and narcissism is that the latter seems to be mundane, such as having a conversation and making everything about one's own self. On the other hand, augury relies on intuition as dissociated from the conscious self. I suppose if you trust in that other-than-conscious instinct/intuition, and as you say check it against self-awareness, then you're probably fine.

But it depends on who you show your findings to, really. The criticism in the review seems to be in the observation that Signs From God has become such a mundane thing that interpretation must now only have come from Gwyneth's egoism or something? I suppose that mundanity is inevitable in a religious model where a personal deity is also omni-trifecta, but it doesn't necessarily mean that somebody who lives in that paradigm would interpret a mass genocide as merely a sign to eat less quesadilla. There could be, in a disagreement, a lot of, "You don't know the true character of God because you don't have Jesus in your heart" "no u!" But it might not necessarily be a one-upmanship of How Present is the Omnipresent in My Own Personal Life. I think it can be, but I think it really depends on how narcissistic the person is, enabled by the religious paradigm.

 
And there are places where mundane interpretations of everything as a 'sign' can slip into some nasty ideas/practices and victim-blaming. I recall being at a Christian Union event at university, back when I was a Christian, and trying to laugh at the people who were interpreting the Foot and Mouth outbreak on British farms as 'God's judgement on Britain'. I was told not to question this, because it absolutely was God's judgement. (Mainly for such awful things as considering a law allowing civil partnership for same-sex couples, of course.)

Then there were the people I knew who saw every falling leaf as an answer to their question "Should I go over and talk to that person who may need evangelising?" or "Is this man going to be my husband?" Confirmation of stuff they already believed, basically.

Depending on how you do it, seeing everything as a 'sign' can lead to making stuff about things that it really isn't about.

So, yeah, that might be problematic for those of us who do augury. But I think, as long as you do it carefully, and think about the consequences of what you believe as a result of the signs, it can work without being oppressive of others or enabling of your pre-existing biases. The human brain is a complex thing that sees patterns everywhere (as I know after a night of hypnogogic stuff in which every shape became a recognisable object). Symbols are everywhere.

- Nay, who is vaguely working on a symbol system that honours the culture she currently lives in. Like, from "a snake in the grass" to "a cat can look at a king".
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Re: Seeing Signs: Are We Narcissists?
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2015, 08:18:06 am »
Quote from: Altair;171995
Many of us here, myself included (in my half-assed attempts at augury), see signs in otherwise ordinary occurrences. Is this inherently narcissistic


There's a Gaelic proverb that says "he who interprets his omens luckily will himself be lucky." In other words, it's a magical strategy, a way of orienting yourself to the universe rather than of making the universe be all about you. Of course, that depends on not being a narcissist in the first place.

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Re: Seeing Signs: Are We Narcissists?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2015, 09:41:08 am »
Quote from: Altair;171995
First of all, read this entire movie review (of--wait for it!--Christian Mingle: The Movie), just because it's so damn funny.

http://uproxx.com/filmdrunk/2015/02/christian-mingle-the-movie-is-an-unintentional-parody-of-whiteness/

Second, this part of the review struck me:


Many of us here, myself included (in my half-assed attempts at augury), see signs in otherwise ordinary occurrences. Is this inherently narcissistic? Is the possible narcissism involved determined by how often we see these things as personal messages to us, or how deeply we are certain that it's a message?

Is there a way to perceive signs that *isn't* narcissistic?

 
I think some of it is also using the world around us to help interpret our own minds.

If I'm worrying at a problem, and I *see a sign* that helps me figure it out - it doesn't matter if the sign came from a deity or my own pattern-matching or an alien messing with me.  Either it works or it doesn't, and the method of getting from A to B doesn't change whether or not it works.

It's like when you flip a coin - it's not what the answer IS that matters, it's what you WANT it to be.  That moment of flipping the coin and realizing you WANT one answer to come up - that's what seeing signs is like to me.  It helps me figure out what I'm already thinking but hasn't bubbled to the top yet.

This also tells me that confirmation bias is a Thing, too. :)  If I'm looking for "yes, go do X" signs, I WILL see them.  And short of a big bus going by with a sign saying "No!" I won't see signs telling me the opposite.

The world is full of signs and portents and augury.  It's also full of meaningless static.  Which we see depends on what we're looking for.

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Re: Seeing Signs: Are We Narcissists?
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2015, 11:20:43 am »
Quote from: HeartShadow;172022
I think some of it is also using the world around us to help interpret our own minds.

The world is full of signs and portents and augury.  It's also full of meaningless static.  Which we see depends on what we're looking for.

 
All of this.

I also think there's a tendency for people looking for signs to fall into this way of thinking where- to use Nay's example- a leaf falls because they were looking for a sign, and if they had not needed a sign, it wouldn't have fallen. I tend to skew in the other direction. The leaf would have fallen either way, but if I hadn't asked for a sign, I wouldn't have noticed it, or I would have noticed it but not attributed any meaning to it. I think entities can draw our attention to things that are already happening (or not) to communicate, but I don't think they necessarily have to make things happen just for us.
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Re: Seeing Signs: Are We Narcissists?
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2015, 02:37:42 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;172022
It's like when you flip a coin - it's not what the answer IS that matters, it's what you WANT it to be.  That moment of flipping the coin and realizing you WANT one answer to come up - that's what seeing signs is like to me.  It helps me figure out what I'm already thinking but hasn't bubbled to the top yet.

 
Yes, yes, yes!  I love this explanation, having never been able to fully articulate it myself.  For me, this is what the majority of divination is about as well - teasing the thing I want to do out of the back of my mind.
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Re: Seeing Signs: Are We Narcissists?
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2015, 07:15:30 pm »
Quote from: Juni;172026
All of this.

I also think there's a tendency for people looking for signs to fall into this way of thinking where- to use Nay's example- a leaf falls because they were looking for a sign, and if they had not needed a sign, it wouldn't have fallen. I tend to skew in the other direction. The leaf would have fallen either way, but if I hadn't asked for a sign, I wouldn't have noticed it, or I would have noticed it but not attributed any meaning to it. I think entities can draw our attention to things that are already happening (or not) to communicate, but I don't think they necessarily have to make things happen just for us.

 
We are from farming and hunting stock who took signs most seriously. When the forsithia blooms in early spring, potatos are planted. Signs tell of situations, to act or not to act.

Narcissim is a fancy, new mental problem. A reason for shrinks to gather money. Signs for shrinks are surveys. Voulentary information.

And yet. What of our great leaders do not believe they are greater than the common person?

Without narcissim, history would have never moved forward. But I think that the majority of information is to keep in their place the masses. So, we hear you must be humble and listen to your betters.

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Re: Seeing Signs: Are We Narcissists?
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2015, 07:20:34 pm »
Quote from: Gilbride;172013
There's a Gaelic proverb that says "he who interprets his omens luckily will himself be lucky." In other words, it's a magical strategy, a way of orienting yourself to the universe rather than of making the universe be all about you. Of course, that depends on not being a narcissist in the first place.

 
There's also the Discordian Law of Fives:

"The Law of Fives states simply that: All things happen in fives, or are divisible by or are multiples of five, or are somehow directly or indirectly appropriate to 5. The Law of Fives is never wrong."
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Re: Seeing Signs: Are We Narcissists?
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2015, 10:37:31 pm »
Quote from: Juni;172026
All of this.

I also think there's a tendency for people looking for signs to fall into this way of thinking where- to use Nay's example- a leaf falls because they were looking for a sign, and if they had not needed a sign, it wouldn't have fallen. I tend to skew in the other direction. The leaf would have fallen either way, but if I hadn't asked for a sign, I wouldn't have noticed it, or I would have noticed it but not attributed any meaning to it. I think entities can draw our attention to things that are already happening (or not) to communicate, but I don't think they necessarily have to make things happen just for us.

 
All of this, squared.

I think the narcissism comes in when one thinks such-and-such sign happened solely as a communication from the gods for one's benefit; that, say, the raven you just saw was sent for you, as a sign from the Morrigan.

No, the raven was looking for food, and being really smart, it knew that the dumpster in the parking lot outside the Domino's Pizza--where you happened to park today--was a reliable bet. If you can find numinous meaning in the bird happening to be there, great; but don't make the bird all about you. It's got its own agenda.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

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Re: Seeing Signs: Are We Narcissists?
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2015, 02:23:33 pm »
Quote from: Juni;172026
All of this.

I also think there's a tendency for people looking for signs to fall into this way of thinking where- to use Nay's example- a leaf falls because they were looking for a sign, and if they had not needed a sign, it wouldn't have fallen. I tend to skew in the other direction. The leaf would have fallen either way, but if I hadn't asked for a sign, I wouldn't have noticed it, or I would have noticed it but not attributed any meaning to it. I think entities can draw our attention to things that are already happening (or not) to communicate, but I don't think they necessarily have to make things happen just for us.

 
I'm on this side of the fence as well. Things are always usually going to happen, so I think spirits and gods can use it to their advantage, to get a point across to us or get us to pay attention and shift our thinking a bit.

I don't know exactly when I made this shift, but it made interpreting "signs" a lot easier for me. There was less pressure to "pay attention", and also less doubt as it was linked to the whole "I am not this special" thought process.
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Re: Seeing Signs: Are We Narcissists?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2015, 05:49:09 am »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;172278
I'm on this side of the fence as well. Things are always usually going to happen, so I think spirits and gods can use it to their advantage, to get a point across to us or get us to pay attention and shift our thinking a bit.


I agree with this.  Coincidences, as I mentioned in another post, have become the ringtone from the gods for me.  But it's a way that I've worked with deity to communicate.  Tarot, for me, is working out my own thoughts--bringing my subconscious forward.  I think, tho, that others can use the tarot as a way to communicate with deity, like deity communicates with me through coincidence and natural signs.

Quote from: Nyktipolos;172278
I don't know exactly when I made this shift, but it made interpreting "signs" a lot easier for me. There was less pressure to "pay attention", and also less doubt as it was linked to the whole "I am not this special" thought process.

 
I don't look for signs anymore, but when they do happen, they're not usually subtle, to my point of view.

And I don't think it's narcissistic to see signs.  I recognize patterns.  That's just how my brain works.  When I see a broken pattern or when I see a rather perfect pattern, I jump on it to see if it could mean anything.  Sometimes, it is what it is.  But other times, I can feel the hackles or the intuition truth bell ringing.

I'm old enough that I have experienced a lot and that helps me tell the difference, so it's just not all theory.  It's not perfect and I still struggle with interpretation.  But I've learned to trust certain signs and coincidences, combined with intuition and what I call my "Truth Bell."

But this is the language I've worked out with the gods to communicate.  Not through tarot.  Not through the pendulum.  Not through Latin.

Some signs hit me like the tarot does--a mirror to reflect myself.  Others have a completely different feel and those are the ones I've gotten pretty good at identifying.  I don't always know what they mean, but they get my attention and send me on a discovery quest.

And to your title question, I'm a panentheist.  God is a narcissist.  We are God's way of looking at God.  Of course there would be signs that we can recognize.  Thou Art God.  When your tummy rumbles, you know that you're hungry.  Extrapolate that to a higher level to know when to recognize signs of import.
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