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Author Topic: What does the Rede mean?  (Read 2874 times)

dragonfaerie

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What does the Rede mean?
« on: January 28, 2015, 08:36:36 am »
The Wiccan Rede does not mean "harm none". I'll give my philosophy for that later.

What I want to know, especially from our newbies and seekers, is what you think the Rede means. Do you agree with me?

For other experienced Wiccans, what do you think? Has your interpretation of the Rede changed over the years?

I'll share my thoughts later on a real PC. It was hard enough to manage to start a thread on the current Tapatalk app.

Karen

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Re: What does the Rede mean?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2015, 06:14:21 pm »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;170130
The Wiccan Rede does not mean "harm none". I'll give my philosophy for that later.

What I want to know, especially from our newbies and seekers, is what you think the Rede means. Do you agree with me?

For other experienced Wiccans, what do you think? Has your interpretation of the Rede changed over the years?

Basically it is, what it actually is, advice. It's a loose moral code for personal interpretation(that obviously can't be read literally) that reminds us that we're responsible for our own actions, and not to infringe on free will. It's not actually a Wiccan law, and many choose not to abide by it compared to other moral guidelines,  but it's there for advice.
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Re: What does the Rede mean?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2015, 10:16:07 pm »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;170130
The Wiccan Rede does not mean "harm none". I'll give my philosophy for that later.

What I want to know, especially from our newbies and seekers, is what you think the Rede means. Do you agree with me?

For other experienced Wiccans, what do you think? Has your interpretation of the Rede changed over the years?

I'll share my thoughts later on a real PC. It was hard enough to manage to start a thread on the current Tapatalk app.

Karen


Not Wiccan or Wiccanate, but I cut my teeth on the good classics - Valiente's An ABC of Witchcraft Past and Present was my 101 book. I vaguely recall Raymond Buckland stating in the Complete Book of Witchcraft that the "do as you will" should be "do as you Will" as in, one should act in accordance with one's Higher Will, rather than simply doing whatever you wanted at the moment.

I also seem to recall a number of other authors pointing out that the Rede was very similar to Crowley's Thelemite philosophy of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" and that "Love is the Law, Love under Will" (Micheal, I assume I'm butchering this, since I haven't looked at the appropriate books in probably a couple of years. Can you correct me?)
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Re: What does the Rede mean?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2015, 06:34:13 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;170161

I also seem to recall a number of other authors pointing out that the Rede was very similar to Crowley's Thelemite philosophy of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" and that "Love is the Law, Love under Will" (Micheal, I assume I'm butchering this, since I haven't looked at the appropriate books in probably a couple of years. Can you correct me?)

 Yea Gardner only made a reference to the witches' morality being similar to that of King Pausole,(which contained the will and harm parts), but it is similar to Crowley's, and Thelema's Law(which we shorten to its gematriac 93 93/93 ). Gardner, who was supposed to be the OTO's European rep before a spell of ill health, incorporated a lot of Thelema material into Wicca's rituals, so it's often thought that's where the Rede comes from, but it was a later addition to the Craft coined by Valiente.(Gardner even took a jab at it in his,"The Meaning of Witchcraft.")

There's a few different wordings of the Rede, which all depends on how it's worded in the Book of Shadows being copied from( for instance mine says, "An it harm none, do what you will"), but it's just there for written tradition, and not a law, that one may or may not choose to follow.
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dragonfaerie

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Re: What does the Rede mean?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2015, 08:48:24 pm »
Quote from: Micheál;170158
Basically it is, what it actually is, advice. It's a loose moral code for personal interpretation(that obviously can't be read literally) that reminds us that we're responsible for our own actions, and not to infringe on free will.


Wow. Only three responses after all that clamor for a Wicca board? Guess discussing theology isn't very sexy.

I agree with this. I've always interpreted the Rede to say that if it doesn't hurt anything, go ahead and do it, which gives the Wiccan a high level of flexibility in personal ethics.

For example, by the Rede, there's nothing wrong with polyamory as long as all parties involved are in accord, no matter what general society might think.

It was only later into my work as a Wiccan that I realized that "will" and "want" are two different things, and that I could pretty much manifest whatever I needed via spellwork if it was in accordance with will rather than want.

What's always struck me is that there really is no dictate for what to do if you are going to cause harm. People will fly in with that "law of three" stuff, but I've always seen all of that as a reminder to be ready to accept the consequences of your actions. I don't see anything wrong with doing "offensive" spellwork... that is to say, active protection magic, binding, etc, as long as you're willing to walk the talk.

What I've never understood, and I hoped someone would chime in about it, is why "Harm None" has become such a popular interpretation. Books aside, is it just for sound-bite value? Judeo-Christian ethical hold-overs? I was really hungry for a good debate...

Karen

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Re: What does the Rede mean?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2015, 08:56:12 pm »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;170464
What I've never understood, and I hoped someone would chime in about it, is why "Harm None" has become such a popular interpretation. Books aside, is it just for sound-bite value? Judeo-Christian ethical hold-overs? I was really hungry for a good debate...

 
Far as I've been able to tell, it's because of people lacking grammar-based parsing skills. Because 'An (or If) it harms none' appears first in the usual phrasing of the Rede, those people take that to be 'the important bit', and assume 'do what you will' is the modifier. I might attribute that to the unfamiliarity of 'an', except that it's so often either explained, or replaced with 'if', and people still make that assumption.

Back when I was teaching Craft, I caused a lot of visible 'aha moments' just by reminding people that the very word 'if' made that the modifying clause, which tends to support my hypothesis.

I think it also combines with the sense of urgency many folks have about assuring nonpagans that we're not those malicious witches of story. Some of that comes, I think, from the drive to appear 'normal', as little different from mainstream religions as possible, on the supposition that this will help make us more acceptable; I strongly suspect, though, that the bulk of it is a result of sharing 'horror stories' - I see that from time to time here on TC, where someone makes a post about how nervous they are about coming out, in which it's clear they're imagining all the worst things they've ever heard about it. So they want to start any coming-out convos with, 'I'm harmless!'

I held back from responding to your OP because you'd made it clear you were looking especially for input from novices, and I didn't want to get in the way of that - as I'm sure you can imagine, I've lots I can say about the topic. I'll try to find time/spoons to throw my two bits' worth in soon; perhaps in all that you'll find something to get your debate-hungry teeth into.

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schwertlilie

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Re: What does the Rede mean?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2015, 02:37:48 am »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;170464
What I've never understood, and I hoped someone would chime in about it, is why "Harm None" has become such a popular interpretation. Books aside, is it just for sound-bite value? Judeo-Christian ethical hold-overs? I was really hungry for a good debate...

Karen

Quote from: SunflowerP;170568
Far as I've been able to tell, it's because of people lacking grammar-based parsing skills.

-snip-

I think it also combines with the sense of urgency many folks have about assuring nonpagans that we're not those malicious witches of story. Some of that comes, I think, from the drive to appear 'normal', as little different from mainstream religions as possible, on the supposition that this will help make us more acceptable.

Agreed with this. I see it in a lot of NeoWicca 101 material, especially at the front of the books, and I'd guess that grammar + respectability politics is a big reason why. F'ex:

Quote
The Wiccan ideal of morality is simple: do what you want, as long as you harm none. This rule contains another unwritten condition: do nothing that will harm yourself.
- Scott Cunningham, "Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitoner," p5

Quote
There is only one simple code of behaviour called the Wiccan Rede. [... T]he way I was taught is simply, "Do what thou will, and let it harm none." Some take it to mean that you can do anything you like, with no consequences, because it's now "part of your religion." That is not what the wiccan Rede says. You can do whatever you want, but you must accept the consequences of your actions. The best guide you can use is to harm none. If you harm none, no harm will be returned to you. My Christian friends and students are always so surprised to find how close the Wiccan Rede is to the Golden Rule...
- Christopher Penczak, "The Inner Temple of Witchcraft," p156-7

Quote
Real Witches do not . . .
. . . hurt people physically, mentally, spiritually, or magickally. Witches have taken an oath to help people, not hurt people. You are not a real Witch if you hurt anybody.
- Silver RavenWolf, "Teen Witch," p13.
(Plus horror stories about the law of threefold return! Though to be fair, I couldn't find any references to "harm none" in "To Ride a Silver Broomstick.")

The problem with all this is that I don't remember coming across discussions of, say, viewpoints like Michael's, or even the issue of hurt vs harm, until several years later. And this simplistic interpretation? It mixed with my existing self-worth issues to make a kind of toxic sludge:

"Harm none means not hurting anyone, so I shouldn't do things which would benefit me at the cost of hurting others, so I shouldn't hurt people's feelings in the name of protecting my boundaries. Harm none means not hurting animals, but plants are entities too, but if I don't eat I'll hurt myself, augh paradox. Harm none means not killing insect pests."

Not good, and it only started to go away as I drifted away from NeoWicca (for unrelated reasons). I'm working on it. :ashamed:
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 02:39:03 am by schwertlilie »

veggiewolf

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Re: What does the Rede mean?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2015, 09:10:12 am »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;170464
...

What's always struck me is that there really is no dictate for what to do if you are going to cause harm. People will fly in with that "law of three" stuff, but I've always seen all of that as a reminder to be ready to accept the consequences of your actions. I don't see anything wrong with doing "offensive" spellwork... that is to say, active protection magic, binding, etc, as long as you're willing to walk the talk.

What I've never understood, and I hoped someone would chime in about it, is why "Harm None" has become such a popular interpretation. Books aside, is it just for sound-bite value? Judeo-Christian ethical hold-overs? I was really hungry for a good debate...

Karen

 
Not a novice or Wiccan of any flavor, but I did go through a Wiccanoid period in my early pagan days.  I always interpreted that most-quoted bit of the Rede to mean that I shouldn't put my will (intent) behind something unless I was willing to deal with the fallout.  Others didn't agree with me; they were adherents to the "don't harm anything, ever" logic loop.

My personal morality is (still) based around the idea of walking my talk and taking responsibility for my own actions.
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dragonfaerie

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Re: What does the Rede mean?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2015, 09:54:24 am »
Quote from: schwertlilie;170579
The problem with all this is that I don't remember coming across discussions of, say, viewpoints like Michael's, or even the issue of hurt vs harm, until several years later.

The greater problem, then, is people who are not encouraged to think for themselves. Or who are unwilling to do so. I cut my Wiccan baby teeth on Scott Cunningham, too.

The problem with conflating hurt and harm is that it does become an unsustainable logic loop, especially when you try to apply it to your entire life vs just what you do in circle.

I mean, can I never say no to someone because I might hurt their feelings? What if saying yes hurts mine? "Harm none" doesn't address the complex choices adults have to make that require ethical balances and trade-offs.

Karen

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Re: What does the Rede mean?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2015, 10:39:38 am »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;170593
"Harm none" doesn't address the complex choices adults have to make that require ethical balances and trade-offs.

 
"Harm none" doesn't even let breathing be ethical.  Take a breath: potentially kill any of a large number of air-drifting microorganisms!  Don't take a breath: die.

I think another factor here (here's one for the List, Sunf!) is that many people are acclimated both to absolute morality strictures and restrictive rather than permissive.

In other words, the model of How To Good Person is based on, one, absolute rules about behaviour, and two, that those rules are Thou Shalt Nots.

So they look at the Rede and say "where's the Thou Shalt Not" and find it in "Harm none".  And then that must be taken as an absolute law, because absolute laws are what morality is about, right?

The idea that the moral guidance is "If it doesn't harm anything, it's okay to do" - which was, I'm certain, formulated in response to a whole lot of 'thou shalt not' stuff that was culturally oppressive but did no actual harm to tohers - simply won't occur to a lot of people.  Because 'it's okay to do' is totally outside their expectations of what moral guidance ever says.
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Re: What does the Rede mean?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2015, 10:13:19 am »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;170130
The Wiccan Rede does not mean "harm none". I'll give my philosophy for that later.



For other experienced Wiccans, what do you think? Has your interpretation of the Rede changed over the years?

Probably the best article I've seen on the Rede to date...

https://gardnerians.wordpress.com/2015/02/28/the-wiccan-rede-is-not-a-poem/
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Re: What does the Rede mean?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2015, 02:17:36 pm »
Quote from: Micheál;172445
Probably the best article I've seen on the Rede to date...

https://gardnerians.wordpress.com/2015/02/28/the-wiccan-rede-is-not-a-poem/


Nice, both the article and the blog. A lot of other great stuff there.

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Re: What does the Rede mean?
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2015, 02:20:29 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;170588
Not a novice or Wiccan of any flavor, but I did go through a Wiccanoid period in my early pagan days.  I always interpreted that most-quoted bit of the Rede to mean that I shouldn't put my will (intent) behind something unless I was willing to deal with the fallout.  Others didn't agree with me; they were adherents to the "don't harm anything, ever" logic loop.

My personal morality is (still) based around the idea of walking my talk and taking responsibility for my own actions.


^^This
 
Quote from: dragonfaerie;170464
I agree with this. I've always interpreted the Rede to say that if it doesn't hurt anything, go ahead and do it, which gives the Wiccan a high level of flexibility in personal ethics.

For example, by the Rede, there's nothing wrong with polyamory as long as all parties involved are in accord, no matter what general society might think.

It was only later into my work as a Wiccan that I realized that "will" and "want" are two different things, and that I could pretty much manifest whatever I needed via spellwork if it was in accordance with will rather than want.

What's always struck me is that there really is no dictate for what to do if you are going to cause harm. People will fly in with that "law of three" stuff, but I've always seen all of that as a reminder to be ready to accept the consequences of your actions. I don't see anything wrong with doing "offensive" spellwork... that is to say, active protection magic, binding, etc, as long as you're willing to walk the talk..


^^And this. To me it's an open sentence - if it's not going to hurt anyone (yourself included) don't worry about it and do as you wish.  If something is going to harm someone, it no longer falls under the Rede and then different moral guidance/consideration is applied. Then it's time to think about what you're doing and act with deliberate intent.

The threefold return was popular for a long time as an add on, and I still like it as the - take responsibility for what you do and be prepared for consequences.

Another way I understand/personally apply "do what thou wilt" pulls a little from Thelema, and in that interpretation ties into my very superficial understanding of Taoism. Follow your will (destiny? path? The Way?) as long as it isn't harmful. Do your thing, as long as you also live and let live.

Wiki Clip:
[WIKI]"DO WHAT THOU WILT" can often be misunderstood to mean "do what you want". When one says "do what thou wilt", this means that the origin of will directs the path. To understand and act upon one's True Will is a sort of "enlightenment" to Thelemites. The ultimate goal of a Thelemite would be to understand and perform their True Will. True Will directs the individual towards destiny and forces them into the joy of accomplishing what they were meant to accomplish without "lust of result" (outside motivations).[4][/WIKI]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Will
 
I think a lot of the 'harm none' emphases came out of the impact of the New Age movement on Wicca, which seems to have carried through into a lot of NeoPaganism. That's still too broad of a statement, but it seems like a lot of popular NewPagan authors favor 'harm none' though since I haven't been reading much WiccaLite lately no examples immediately come to mind...

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