The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

Warning: long post!

I'm by no means a newbie to contemporary Paganism; I made my self-initiation into a form of (neo-)Wicca when I was thirteen and now I'm twenty seven. After some time I left it. (I left paganism many times when I was younger.) I started to practice Ásatrú when I was around eighteen and I did it haltingly for some years. Now I'm a believer, but I do not *practice* any religion. And I would like to recover my religious life, but I no longer know whether this is possible, at least within contemporary Paganism. Some of the factors that may be playing a part in this state of affairs are the following:

Mental health issues. I don't know whether my having OCPD affects my religious life, but I think it does. I really do not like feeling that I'm making things up and/or developing religious practices with no clear historical precedent at the very least. This prevents me from doing much of what I see other contemporary Pagans doing, like doing more than one religion separetely from the other(s) and worshipping Deities related to peoples that either had no contact historically, or whose contact left no historical record. I know these ideas may be problematic and/or inaccurate for various reasons, but I can't help thinking this way.
Another of my major issues is the often extreme hardship I face when having to come to a decision. I can't tell how many different paths I've "finally" chosen to follow just to think again after a couple of days. I change my mind so fast that I can't even do any ritual, say any prayer and so forth during my very brief time at the path in question, even though sometimes I buy religious items related to the path I chose and I don't know what to do with them when I pick another up. And then I feel anxiety thinking how to put away and putting away what I bought.

Social/political and geographical conditions. I'm a light-skinned but predominantly black-looking trirracial; I'm gay; I'm fat; I'm working class (and currently unemployed); neither I am a Westerner, nor I hold citizenship of any Western country; and I live far from any large city. I face other forms of discrimination (or non-privilege), but I think these are enough for one to figure out what I mean.
My social positions constitute a huge part of why I've never really felt I belonged to

Ásatrú. As I become awarer of how European colonialism changed for bad the lives of people like me, I consider quitting every single pratice related to peoples rooted in northern hemisphere. At the same time I know I and my whole family have some degree of European ancestry, even if it's not obvious; I also can't forget it was an European-related Deity - and a Deity associated with Portuguese people - that warned me about my father's impending death.
In addition to all this there are other aspects of contemporary Paganism, specially - but not only - of the recon-ish varieties, that don't match my reality. How to celebrate (positive) law when one lives in a society where the real law is not only completely different from the established one, but also works against the sense of social cohesion? Or how to celebrate beauty if one's body doesn't meet the relevant current social standards?[/LIST]

Fear of religious practices. Years ago I attended a Wiccan ritual and I faced consequences of my being disrespectful at it. I do not feel comfortable going into detail about it even after all these years. (I am almost sure it happened in 2008.)
I think the best I can do about it is starting again with very simple religious practices. I thought of a prayer from the Norse lore that I could say after I wake up when I reconsidered following

Ásatrú, but I haven't found anything similar from the Brazilian/Tupinambá/Tupi lore.[/LIST]

Fear of possession. This fear is so great that it prevented me from being initiated into Umbanda even in the rare moment my father accepted it. This is the reason why I'm also driven away from all African-Brazilian religions.
I think I'm afraid of entheogens for a similar reason; alcohol and my meds are all the drugs I willingly take. (Or it's my hypochondriasis. Or it's a rationalistic leaning. Or it's a little bit of all these factors.) This drives me away from all established native Brazilian-inspired religions.

Can anyone help me?

Now I'm a believer, but I do not *practice* any religion. And I would like to recover my religious life, but I no longer know whether this is possible

I don't know if this would help, but here's just my personal take on these issues that might bounce off yours (I hope):

I believe that it (life, spirituality) begins--or at least this explanation would flow better if we begin--with the mental state, thought patterns, thought processes, notions and symbols. It's all in your head, but as you live there, it operates exactly. Even when you're in The World, the world is in your head, and this is not to say that there is no world, there is of course The World as a thing that exists, (let's say because I'll go on forever trying to eke out something sensible if The World is not a thing that we can take as a given,) but it's mainly experienced through an imitation of it in your head. With the made-up stuff. But what is the pattern or process of a "made-up" thing in your head? Whatever we define as religion or even anything in life must (my hypothesis, reserve your own right to your own musts and opinions) fit the designated pattern and process, or else it would be outside of the totality of one's experience. If anything was associated inaccurately and I cared (I usually do care), of course I would recognise it as "made-up" in a bad way and make corrections accordingly; but what appears to be made-up on the outside is not necessarily lacking in spiritual profundity and resonance in another person's subjective internal experience.
 
What also helped me was the idea that there's a false divide between historical tradition and modernity. Tradition is something of the past, but it only exists in the present because it continues to serve a need in the present. If we pretend that we can take a snapshot of a tradition at any point in history, we still consider the result of what has not died, and ideas and practices, even traditional ones, would have died all the time. The new ones…what makes them made-up in the lying bad way, just because they're new? Usually I consider them the natural result or evolution of ideas and symbols and practices that were already (always) there.

And what is the "self" that we are so afraid to lose to another during possession? One thing that depression has impressed upon me is that neurology is very difficult to change or even to life with. If anything "came into" my body, it would be stuck with my brain and my neurons, and therefore itself struggle with depression, and have my memories, and must work with my thought process, have my cravings and unreasonable fears, and basically my soul-stuff could have been a revolving door walk-in millions of times and we wouldn't know it. It would require compatibility in the first place. If I feel that something external is taking over, it would still be frightening and awful, but I theoretically recognise a compatibility and perhaps own the experience as a dissociated part of myself interfacing with the conscious part (that must necessarily retain integrity, but I've recognised a constant "danger" in the subconscious impulses to the integrity of the conscious for so long that I eventually just own it and work with it, and that from the outside looks an awful lot like possession.)

None of the above applies to anybody else's subjective experience of their own spirituality or that of their spiritual community, unless they like these ideas and want to adopt it, or even if the above assertions convey unfortunate implications worthy of attention and criticism.

Another thing this reminds me of (although I feel that I've mentioned that a lot this week so forgive me if I've mentioned this to you specifically too many times before) Carl Jung's psychoanalysis of his own daydreams, one where he's waxing philosophical about how Christianity had taken over the Western world because (according to him) it was meant to and all Westerners are now--or, at the time of Jung's writing--either Christian or lying to themselves. Later Jung noticed that the symbols in his own psyche aren't all Bible all the time, and conceded to pagan polytheistic influences. That was psychoanalysis and not paganism, but I took it as a description of an experience that could be interpreted either way (which is not to say that meditative visions, theophanic conversations, and numinous dreams are the only way to be pagan, of course--I just haven't gotten around to devotional habits, although I want to because I'm also wanting to get this cloud-headed philosophy more grounded in religious practice. But since I'm not there, I'm...not.)

It might be worth your while to investigate why you feel that these things are entangled with "being a pagan".

Expanding on this, you may find the "You Can't Be Pagan" list informative. (Note that all of the items on that list were said to people who are Pagan).

Also, I should note that for every point you (Kaio) mention, I can think of a Cauldron member who also has that characteristic. So none of these things are an absolute barrier to being Pagan.

Expanding on this, you may find the "You Can't Be Pagan" list informative. (Note that all of the items on that list were said to people who are Pagan).

Also, I should note that for every point you (Kaio) mention, I can think of a Cauldron member who also has that characteristic. So none of these things are an absolute barrier to being Pagan.

 Thank you! But I think my problem has more to do with how I seemingly am not capable of finding a path and developing a Pagan, regular religious practice than with what other people think about whether I can be Pagan or not.

If you're afraid of religions because of potential spiritual backlash, and you're afraid of being possessed because it might happen, then it's because you deeply believe in those things as realities.

Is there some chance in finding some comfort in the fact that that type of belief means that you already *are* what spirituality you want to be, but that you're simply afraid to move around in it?

 
You put it shorter and more simply than I did, but that's exactly it. It could be that everyone already has the thing, but it's just a matter of expressing it in the word spirituality and then in the practices and the symbolism (and the community) and the values and all that would get it rolling as a thing.

... I agree with you, but I only feel I'm a Pagan as long as I'm *practicing* a Pagan religion.

I like reading, debating and so forth. I really do. But I think religion is about *doing* something - specially the Pagan ones, many of which often focus on orthopraxy.

What constitutes 'practice', in your opinion?

A lot of people fall into the "what should I be doing?" trap when Seeking, and I think some of it is based on the influence of what I call "congregation-style" religious practice.  Congregation-style means there's a place to go to, on a schedule, where people gather with with other people, and do specific things in the name of their religion.  The place, schedule, and things vary, of course, but the style of go-here-at-this-time-and-do-X permeates a number of religions.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with congregation-style religious practice, if that's what you want.  Many of us, though, are not involved with this style because we don't have all four things - there's no specific place to go to, for example, or a specific schedule either doesn't exist or is amazingly difficult to figure out (see the Kemetic calendar as an example of this), or actual things-to-do aren't well-documented so people are forced to create their own (see "Celtic practice" for examples of this).  Add in that there aren't always other people with whom we can practice and, well, the style stops working.

Yes, but this is not unproblematic. Because I practiced (Neo-)Wicca and Ásatrú, because a relationship with some Deities related to Europe was part of my religious experience and because I have some degree of European ancestry. And because I know I may want to build or rebuild a relationship with Deities related to Europe at some point.

Are you able to tease out exactly why you feel conflicted?  If so, you may be able to start working through it if you really believe you need to.

"Recon" is a short form of "reconstructionist(s)" or "reconstructionism(s)".

About the law I meant the way the law works here is very different from the way it works in Western societies, where the positive law seems to be less arbitrary from people's point of view; Western-like laws were imposed on this country by our  Europeanized ruling class, but no one really cares about them (including the high classes). I mean that the society I live in doesn't display the same degree of social cohesion that could justify how common forms of Germanic contemporary Paganism view the law, for example.

If I understand what you're saying here, you want to practice a religion that has defined cultural reference, but that you are worried about it not working based on who you are and the society you live in.  Have I got that right?

Why is this a worry?

No, I don't think I suffer from internalized racism; I attended Umbanda sessions since I was a child and I've worked at an Umbanda shop. But it's very common here; many priests of Candomblé and Umbanda leave these religions and become Christian fundies.

 I think these religions are beautiful, specially Umbanda and Quimbanda; the last is not only beautiful, but has a history of political resistance among African-Brazilians. Yet I can't cope even with the idea of possession. And I don't know any African-Brazilian or native Brazilian-derived religions in which the practice of possession or the use of entheogens doesn't play a part.

I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here, as my religious practices don't require possession, so maybe someone else could tell me: do Umbanda and Quimbanda require lay-practitioners to be possessed/horsed, or is this only required of priests?  Do you want to be a priest?

Maybe because I think being a Pagan is something about *doing* something related to a Pagan religion, not just reading/debating. And I couldn't develop a remotely regular pratice to this very day.

Doing what, though?  Reading can be a religious act, as are many other things that aren't stamped with a label that says "THIS THING IS RELIGIOUS. DO IT."

Here's an example: I have a second job teaching people to swim.  I do this for any number of reasons (love of the water, belief that swimming is a necessary life skill, etc.), but I also view my teaching as religious work.  Why?  Well, one of the primary religious tenets of my practice is that ma'at (Divine Order; Existence) must be upheld, and strengthening the community strengthens ma'at.  There's no label on it; no one wrote an article (although maybe they should!) about Teaching Swimming from a Pagan Perspective, but it is still religious work because it upholds ma'at.  And, using that definition means a lot of what I do is religious work, despite it not having obvious trappings.

This same thing may not work for you, but I think you do yourself a disservice if you don't explore things you do as part of your life and think about what connections they may have to what you believe.  You may be doing religious work without realizing it, and you don't need your actions to be grouped into Four/Five Elemental associations to make that true.

This was a reference to Nearctic winters, wherein North Americans get a little mentally unstable. Traditionally called "cabin fever," now sometimes called "seasonal affective disorder." Reconstructionist religions, I've noticed, have a tendency to try to create a culture to go with the religion, which does not work for a lot of people, because it creates a disconnect with their native culture. That may be part of your problem.

 
.... what the everliving fuck are you even trying to say here?  It SOUNDS like you're saying that people who have issues with winter are making bullshit religions around it.  I sincerely hope I'm reading you wrong.

Also, cabin fever is NOT the same as seasonal affective disorder, and neither is REMOTELY like panic attacks.  It's not like there's some box of neuro issues that can be cross-labeled at random.  AND they're not minor little things to laugh off or handwave away.

Seriously, I'm hoping we're having a massive misunderstanding here.  Because AS someone with neuro issues, I'm feeling pretty damn pissed at your dismissal of real issues here.

(...) Is there some chance in finding some comfort in the fact that that type of belief means that you already *are* what spirituality you want to be, but that you're simply afraid to move around in it?

 Since orthopraxy is often emphasized over orthodoxy by contemporary Pagan religions, I think it's not really comforting. And I don't know what spirituality I want to be.
 

It is still active as a SIG, and you can send me a PM if you'd like to join.

 
 I will do it!
 

What constitutes 'practice', in your opinion?

A lot of people fall into the "what should I be doing?" trap when Seeking, and I think some of it is based on the influence of what I call "congregation-style" religious practice.  Congregation-style means there's a place to go to, on a schedule, where people gather with with other people, and do specific things in the name of their religion.  The place, schedule, and things vary, of course, but the style of go-here-at-this-time-and-do-X permeates a number of religions.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with congregation-style religious practice, if that's what you want.  Many of us, though, are not involved with this style because we don't have all four things - there's no specific place to go to, for example, or a specific schedule either doesn't exist or is amazingly difficult to figure out (see the Kemetic calendar as an example of this), or actual things-to-do aren't well-documented so people are forced to create their own (see "Celtic practice" for examples of this).  Add in that there aren't always other people with whom we can practice and, well, the style stops working.

 I think a concept of religious practice may be a set of actions that are traditionally related to the relevant religion. Prayers and libations are examples of religious practices.
 I agree that congregation-style may have influence on how I think about religious practices, but I was a solitary since I started out my religious life as a Pagan. I think I'm used to solitary religious practices. Moreover I think prayers and libations do not require a congregation, yet I'm unable perform this kind of ritual.

Are you able to tease out exactly why you feel conflicted?  If so, you may be able to start working through it if you really believe you need to.

 In spite of being drawn mostly by European and Middle Eastern religions, I can't say I would be wholly comfortable if I decided to give up my African and native heritages wholesale with respect to religion. OTOH I see many non-whites trying their best to get rid of every single trait of theirs that is relatable to their heritage with seemingly no cultural guilt.
 I've thought about doing something for my African and native heritages through other means and leaving my religious life aside from politics. But I know I change my mind so easily that I can't say whether I will ever able to settle even the basics of my religious life.

If I understand what you're saying here, you want to practice a religion that has defined cultural reference, but that you are worried about it not working based on who you are and the society you live in.  Have I got that right?

 
 Yes.

I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here, as my religious practices don't require possession, so maybe someone else could tell me: do Umbanda and Quimbanda require lay-practitioners to be possessed/horsed, or is this only required of priests?  Do you want to be a priest?

 No; possession is only for the mediums.
 Yes, I'd like to be a priest of the religion at which I'd settled. I was raised Catholic but I was way more religious than my parents; I prayed the rosary everyday and I had many images of saints. I remember I told my parents I wanted to study abroad at a college where boys/men study in order to become a priest; they didn't allow me to do it.

Doing what, though?  Reading can be a religious act, as are many other things that aren't stamped with a label that says "THIS THING IS RELIGIOUS. DO IT."

Here's an example: I have a second job teaching people to swim.  I do this for any number of reasons (love of the water, belief that swimming is a necessary life skill, etc.), but I also view my teaching as religious work.  Why?  Well, one of the primary religious tenets of my practice is that ma'at (Divine Order; Existence) must be upheld, and strengthening the community strengthens ma'at.  There's no label on it; no one wrote an article (although maybe they should!) about Teaching Swimming from a Pagan Perspective, but it is still religious work because it upholds ma'at.  And, using that definition means a lot of what I do is religious work, despite it not having obvious trappings.

This same thing may not work for you, but I think you do yourself a disservice if you don't explore things you do as part of your life and think about what connections they may have to what you believe.  You may be doing religious work without realizing it, and you don't need your actions to be grouped into Four/Five Elemental associations to make that true.

 
 Teaching to swim became a religious practice to you because you are informed by a religious concept, and a religious concept that allows one to conceive many activities as religious. I don't have such religious concepts because I didn't settle myself at any religion.

Hi there! I don't have OCPD but I do manage to religion with OCD so maybe some of my experience will be helpful. (Also I believe there was a whole thread on Religion with OCD a while back that might have other suggestions.)

I have actually had the most success coming from the complete opposite direction. Instead of spending endless hours researching and worrying I'm doing it wrong and the gods hate me and will smite me, and fearing possession to the point of ritualistic psychic hygiene compulsions, I have worked on a technique I call theos logos. I open myself in a very limited way to higher powers by "taking dictation" - a kind of automatic writing. In the course of writing, I find out what the gods want and I do that.

It took me years to make this a workable system but I am now in a place with religion where religious scrupulousity flares up only occasionally and I am able to go about my practice with minimally intrusive thoughts. Perhaps something like this would work for you, but even if not, know that just because it takes years doesn't mean you won't find an answer that does.

 
 Hi!
 I made a mistake upthread; I have OCD, not OCPD! Too many initialisms in English! Thank you for reminding me that that p stands for personality!
 By what you said about yourself it seems that we had the same or very similar issues! It's good to be understood! Additionally I have this problem of being very indecisive; it may be related to OCD or to a rampant form of self-defeating behaviour.
 Still about OCD I think I may at least lessen my anxieties related to rituals if I start again slowly and with very simple practices, like a prayer. Maybe one prayer a day in the beginning. But in order to do it I need to define at least some of the basics of my religious life beforehand.