Author Topic: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues (Read 5561 times)

Jabberwocky · « **on:** January 24, 2015, 08:41:08 pm »

Spinning this off from the new forum thread to try and not disrupt that too much.

The discussion so far:

Quote from: Jabberwocky;169869

There's a third thing that, knowing the views of our hosts, I'm sure also has no chance of changing. But I want to throw my support behind the current policy of allowing people to self-identify as pagans and/or occultists.

And the associated stuff like the refusal to exclude Satanists et al.

Quote from: RandallS;169871

That definitely will not be changing -- at least not as long as Lyric and I are running things.

Quote from: Yei;169906

I'm just curious but, was their ever actually a debate on the forum about this?

Quote from: Jabberwocky;169907

Not on here. But it's something of an issue elsewhere.

Quote from: Yei;169908

Do you mind if I ask where?

Or would that be a little...invasive/impolite/impudent/what's the word I'm looking for...?

Quote from: Jabberwocky;169910

A really good example would be this article from Isaac Bonewits of the ADF.

I actually like a lot of Bonewits stuff, but he was one of the worst offenders for trying to redefine paganism so it only included people he liked.

See this as well, where he decides that "what Isaac believes" and "what Neopagans believe" are synonymous.

Quote from: RandallS;169915

I liked Issac as a person, but often disagreed with him. His issues with Satanism being considered "pagan" was one of those areas.

This was one of my early issues with the ADF: I didn't think a Pagan pope was needed. LOL.

Quote from: SunflowerP;169922

IME, 'but not those awful Satanists!' (usually founded in the assumption that the Christian right's conception of what Satanists are and do - most specifically, that they 'worship the Christian devil' - is accurate:rolleye: is endemic in Pagandom.

Sunflower

Jabberwocky · « **Reply #1 on:** January 24, 2015, 09:02:12 pm »

Quote from: Jabberwocky;169928

Spinning this off from the new forum thread to try and not disrupt that too much.

The discussion so far:

A few more thoughts on this.

I have no issue with exclusion per se. In fact the flipside of this issue is that far too many pagans are carriers of geek social fallacy #1. (Bonus points for those people who manage to both do that and do the "ewww Satanists" thang at the same time). In fact, the moot I used to be involved with was pretty well-known for not being a welcoming place for folkish types. (And any actual fascist turning up would have risked leaving through a window).

So, actually, I think Isaac had a perfect right to define the beliefs of the ADF in the way he did. I'll even support his right to refuse to work with Satanists on an individual level. (Although personally I think that refusing to do so on issues like religious persecution is tactically inept). What I take issue with is his attempts to claim a monopoly on the definitions of paganism and to codify beliefs in a way that matched his own. I simply don't accept that he had any kind of authority to declare people apostates and heretics in the way he tried to.

This issue is closely linked to attempts to 'mainstream' Paganism. To try and present it as 'respectable' and find a more unified voice to present to outsiders. So it's closely linked to stuff like claiming that all Pagans 'respect' or even 'worship' nature. I don't really have a dog in that fight. (I don't identify as a Pagan. Hell, I'm normally pretty reluctant to identify as an occultist these days). But I can see why people take issue with it.

It's one of the reasons I think Satanists are something of a canary in the mine on this. Because it rarely ends with Satanists. Why would it, when you're wanting to 'tidy' up Paganism?

So those that follow deities that are seen as too 'dark' frequently follow close behind for condemnation. Occultists in general. Especially those who are on an 'amoral' path (like chaos magic). Those who think cursing can be valid or even (less frequently but it happens) those who don't follow the Threefold Law. And it can even extend as far as many recons, who don't follow Paganism in the way that the speaker thinks it should be defined.

Redfaery · « **Reply #2 on:** January 25, 2015, 01:24:06 am »

Quote from: Jabberwocky;169928

Spinning this off from the new forum thread to try and not disrupt that too much.

The discussion so far:

I honestly have trouble believing that anyone in their right mind would worship the fundamentalist Christian interpretation of Satan, which is so often what the Wicca 101 books seem to be denouncing. I mean, the way fundies always described Him made me feel like they actually expected a guy to show up with a tail sticking out of his pants. He didn't seem dangerous or even believable. He was just a cartoon for them to project their insecurities onto so they could puff themselves up and be prideful about how much faith they had.

HeartShadow · « **Reply #3 on:** January 25, 2015, 07:16:36 am »

Quote from: Jabberwocky;169931

Well - it's a /human/ trait here, not a pagan one. The "we want to be mainstream, so we'll throw the freak-end of the group under the bus" issue.

Look at trans* issues and the gay rights movement. Or any other group that has an extreme end. "We're not THEM" is the rallying cry of the "normal" end of the outsiders. We're not THEM. You can trust US - we're different, but we're SAFE different. Not THOSE people.

Materialist · « **Reply #4 on:** January 25, 2015, 10:01:34 am »

Quote from: Jabberwocky;169931

To try and present it as 'respectable' and find a more unified voice to present to outsiders.
So those that follow deities that are seen as too 'dark' frequently follow close behind for condemnation.

Paganism isn't respectable? I've been living a lie!:D:

Among branches of Sanatana Dharma you will find worship of the Bhutah, the ghosts of evil persons, which are also believed to be evil; but by worshiping them they are cleansed and become the deity of the village they haunted. Moral of the story: some things are only evil because we choose to view them as such.

Emma Eldritch · « **Reply #5 on:** January 25, 2015, 04:11:11 pm »

Quote from: Redfaery;169947

I honestly have trouble believing that anyone in their right mind would worship the fundamentalist Christian interpretation of Satan, which is so often what the Wicca 101 books seem to be denouncing. I mean, the way fundies always described Him made me feel like they actually expected a guy to show up with a tail sticking out of his pants. He didn't seem dangerous or even believable. He was just a cartoon for them to project their insecurities onto so they could puff themselves up and be prideful about how much faith they had.

What, you never met a guy like ?

But seriously, I guess that would depend on your definition of 'worship.' I can say that I do understand why someone would embrace the Jack Chick version of Satan - there's a certain power in running with the most overblown 'other' mythology has to offer.

Yei · « **Reply #6 on:** January 25, 2015, 04:21:38 pm »

Quote from: Jabberwocky;169928

Spinning this off from the new forum thread to try and not disrupt that too much.

Something I didn't ask in the other thread but...

Who is Isaac Bonewits anyway?

Valeria Crowe · « **Reply #7 on:** January 25, 2015, 05:03:21 pm »

Quote from: HeartShadow;169949

Well - it's a /human/ trait here, not a pagan one. The "we want to be mainstream, so we'll throw the freak-end of the group under the bus" issue.

Look at trans* issues and the gay rights movement. Or any other group that has an extreme end. "We're not THEM" is the rallying cry of the "normal" end of the outsiders. We're not THEM. You can trust US - we're different, but we're SAFE different. Not THOSE people.

And on the other hand, the more 'other' part of the group often look down on those they see as closer to the mainstream, viewing them as not really members of the group, posessing mainstream privlege, sellouts, denying some essential part of their identity, etc.

As a bisexual man, I get that sometimes from that gay community, being told its a phase, that I have striaght privlege and will abandon the lgbt community, that I'm suffering from internalized homophobia and need to become the gay man I 'really' am.

Neither attitude is sensible or constructive, and only serves to divide communities and groups of communites who most need to be united.

Redfaery · « **Reply #8 on:** January 25, 2015, 05:29:05 pm »

Quote from: Mama Fortuna;169975

What, you never met a guy like ?

You threw me for a loop there. I was expecting Richard Ramirez.

Actually, I think there should be a Godwin's Law corollary for Satanism - the longer any discussion of Satanic worship goes on, the greater the likelihood that The Night Stalker will be mentioned.

Emma Eldritch · « **Reply #9 on:** January 25, 2015, 05:44:11 pm »

Quote from: Redfaery;169982

You threw me for a loop there. I was expecting Richard Ramirez.

Actually, I think there should be a Godwin's Law corollary for Satanism - the longer any discussion of Satanic worship goes on, the greater the likelihood that The Night Stalker will be mentioned.

I shouldn't find that funny, but I do. I'm a bad person.

Redfaery · « **Reply #10 on:** January 25, 2015, 05:46:27 pm »

Quote from: Mama Fortuna;169983

I shouldn't find that funny, but I do. I'm a bad person.

I must be an awful person, then...because it was a joke.

SunflowerP · « **Reply #11 on:** January 25, 2015, 07:35:46 pm »

Quote from: Yei;169977

Something I didn't ask in the other thread but...

Who is Isaac Bonewits anyway?

Here ya go.

Sunflower

SunflowerP · « **Reply #12 on:** January 25, 2015, 07:42:32 pm »

Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;169981

And on the other hand, the more 'other' part of the group often look down on those they see as closer to the mainstream, viewing them as not really members of the group, posessing mainstream privlege, sellouts, denying some essential part of their identity, etc.

As a bisexual man, I get that sometimes from that gay community, being told its a phase, that I have striaght privlege and will abandon the lgbt community, that I'm suffering from internalized homophobia and need to become the gay man I 'really' am.

Neither attitude is sensible or constructive, and only serves to divide communities and groups of communites who most need to be united.

I dunno how much of that is about the 'more Other' looking down on the 'less Other'; a lot of it is, 'Stop being so weird and untidy, you're making us look bad.' We non-monosexuals threaten their acceptability as 'just another sort of monosexual' (and other things, but it's all about how we are a threat to their acceptability/respectability).

Sunflower

SunflowerP · « **Reply #13 on:** January 25, 2015, 07:46:26 pm »

Quote from: HeartShadow;169949

Well - it's a /human/ trait here, not a pagan one. The "we want to be mainstream, so we'll throw the freak-end of the group under the bus" issue.

Look at trans* issues and the gay rights movement. Or any other group that has an extreme end. "We're not THEM" is the rallying cry of the "normal" end of the outsiders. We're not THEM. You can trust US - we're different, but we're SAFE different. Not THOSE people.

Yep. Assimilationism, respectability politics.

I've never been able to wrap my head around that; if someone wanted so badly to Fit In and Be Normal and all that, why paganism, fer gossakes? (But, well, my teen rebellion wasn't against my parents, it was against normativity (and my peers) and I've never really outgrown it.)

Sunflower

Darkhawk · « **Reply #14 on:** January 25, 2015, 08:38:11 pm »

Quote from: SunflowerP;169991

I've never been able to wrap my head around that; if someone wanted so badly to Fit In and Be Normal and all that, why paganism, fer gossakes?

I actually think, though, that this is one of the fascinating undercurrents in some things. (I'm thinking of the First Church Of Wicca stuff that resurged recently on TWH and led to me spending several days muttering.) That there are people who want their goddess-worship, or their crystal-waving Craft, but they want it to be normal - congregational, weekly meetings, an authority figure up in front, and so on.

And possibly there's not having a mental model for any other form of religion in there, and there's for other people a "I just want to Worship Teh Goddess, not be a WEIRDO" or whatever it is the model is for people who don't follow that particular structure.

And that's a thing that Satanists and their organisations tend not to coddle: there's no common 'I just want to worship Satan, not be a WEIRDO' logic, which means that the ... more mainstreamed sorts can easily feel nothing in common with them, I suspect.

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Author Topic: "We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues (Read 5561 times)

Jabberwocky

"We're not like 'those' people"- Satanists & Paganism and related issues

Jabberwocky

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Redfaery

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