The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

Thinking of trying something new...post-Ragnarok heathenry

I'm gonna want to get a lot more thinkier on my thoughts when it comes to the definition of deity and the implications of this event on then-defined deities in terms of cosmology and practice within a belief system, before answering like that.

So…Lif, Lifthrasir and...?

I think if the lack of human worship is powerful enough to "kill" (end the existence) of a God, than couldn't the reestablishment of their cult "resurrect" them?

I personally don't think that human worship can create or destroy a being, but it can establish, change, and even destroy a relationship. In that case, the conversion to Christianity would be something more like a divorce and remarriage rather than a murder. In which case, modern Heathenry could be seen as nothing more dramatic than reestablishing a relationship with an old friend or romantic partner.

I will attempt to respectfully disagree with you, if indeed you are saying that Gods such as Aegir, Vidar, etc. should be the focus of worship because they "survived" Ragnarok.  If the conversion to Christianity is the main event which destroyed the relationship with these Gods, than it doesn't seem to matter if they are mentioned as "surviving" Ragnarok, because their status as beings worthy of religious veneration did not continue any more than such traditions did with Odin, Thor and Freyr (if I recall correctly, these are the only Gods mentioned as specifically dying during Ragnarok?)

Finally, although the worship of these Gods ceased during conversion, they have continued to play a role in the culture as "mythological" deities. I increasingly think that our relationships with these deities never really ended, they were just transformed into something other than the overt religious worship that characterized their cults before conversion. So Odin went from being the guy that the whole community prays to together, to the guy who leads the Wild Hunt in the winter.

In short, I don't think that the Elder Gods are "dead" any more than a friend you haven't talked to in years is dead. If the situation arises, a fruitful relationship can be reestablished. And that's exactly what I think modern Heathens and Pagans are doing.

I don't think people can kill gods either, but I do believe fate can. Which is something that Odin understood according to the Eddas.

If Scandinavians did view the conversion as the coming of Ragnarok and they watched it spreading across N.Europe, then it's entirely possible that they understood it in the language of their culture.

For example, Odin is swallowed by the wolf Fenrir, whose name translates to fen-dweller. Fen is of course water, and therefore Odin is swallowed up by the wolf's water. IOW, Christian baptism, which was forcefully and brutally performed in some cases. Thor, whose tree was felled, is poisoned by the serpent Jormungandr, the great girdle of Catholic Rome encircling the earth.

Swallowed up and poisoned by is, IMO, language reminiscent of assimilation and syncretism. Freyr (sacral lordship) dies because he gave his sword for a wife. The conversion really kicked off when Clovis took on his wife's religion, and it was often  Germanic leadership that set the example of conversion for the rest of the tribe.  

It gets really bloody with Charlemagne, and I think most heathens probably began to understand that conversion was inevitable. Thus, the great battle that was the twilight of the gods.

The Aesir were going to fall. The world was going to change. But, like anything in nature, there is a spring after winter.




I have an idea that the new gods should be worshipped not because they "survived" Ragnarok, but because they are the gods best prepared to lead in a new world.

The world that the old gods ruled over doesn't exist anymore. As a reconstructionist, I've tried adapting that world to this one and it didn't work out as well as I had hoped. There are traditions, folklore, customs and beliefs that remain, just like the playing pieces on the fields of Idavoll, but it's also a new game.

I don't think Odin is absent, but he's passed the torch. His work is done. He built what he could, sacrificed what he could, made the impact that he did so that something would survive Ragnarok, and that has been accomplished. If Ragnarok happens when Odin is swallowed by the literal collapse of the universe then yeah, we wait. If Ragnarok happens when Odin and the old gods are no longer reginn, then that happened ages ago.



I think if heathen architects built their churches to depict the heathen apocalypse, with the world tree on its doors, then it was meant, in some way, to also represent the possibility of Lif and Lifpasir hiding within. And I think this is shown in how well Germanic spirituality severely transformed early Christianity. But to survive Christianity, heathenism had to become a part of it. And now it's almost an impossible task to truly separate them. This is how the gods are 'lost'.

Whats interesting is that the gods who 'survive' are the ones who couldn't be corrupted. Vidar is mute. Hoenir is blind. Baldr is dead. In a post-ragnarok world, they are now capable of providing uncompromised wit, countenance, and soul respectively.  Like Vili, Ve and Odin.




I also think it's possible to have a relationship with the old gods, but like retired advisors. The new gods are more suited to this world.

Anyway. Just an idea. Still needs work.

As a non-godbothered person, the implications of post-Ragnarok heathenry are kind of exciting. Because with recon I did sometimes feel like I was dealing with ghosts. What gods was I supposed to hear, see and feel, if Vidar is silent, Hoenir is blind, and Baldr is dead? But if I turn to Idavoll, and see a heathenry  that's new, then the potential to hear, see and feel is new.  Its an adventure.

Good question. Usually when I think of these things I'm so focused on one side of the coin that I forget to consider the other. So I really appreciate your input.

My best answer is that its wibbily wobbly timey wimey. We already agree that mythic time is not as concrete as human time. Is Loki bound or isn't he is a big one. And I think the world of rural Russia, or the world of Indigenous Amazonians, are much closer to pre-Ragnarok then New York is for example. The good thing about Ragnarok not being a literal, global event is that its possible to fiddle with its time line. And thats also compatible with the flexible polytheistic beliefs of early heathenry. The myth of Ragnarok didn't mention how Zeus, Quezecotal (sp?), or the Morrigan fared...because it is only relevant to those it is actually relevant to.

The headspace of some heathens may exist in a pre-Ragnarok world, while others may exist post-Ragnarok. I think it doesn't matter in the long run, even considering the linear nature of wyrd, because new gods and new people seem to fall into their spaces of cyclical fate. And we're all subject to that.  Vili, Ve and Odin are a later installment of the Hermiones, Istavones, Ingavones, and Vidar, Baldr and Honir could replace that. Hengst and Horsa replace The Alcis, and Magni and Modi may replace them. History repeats itself.


As a non-godbothered person, the implications of post-Ragnarok heathenry are kind of exciting. Because with recon I did sometimes feel like I was dealing with ghosts. What gods was I supposed to hear, see and feel, if Vidar is silent, Hoenir is blind, and Baldr is dead? But if I turn to Idavoll, and see a heathenry  that's new, then the potential to hear, see and feel is new.  Its an adventure.

My question is how your perceive the role of deities that are not expressly mentioned as either surviving or dying during Ragnarok; Frigga, Freya, Skadi, Bragi, Idunna, Mani, Ullr, Eir etc. In one of the earlier posts you seemed to indicate that these deities would have a role in post-Ragnarok Heathenry. Would you see these deities as continuing to have similar functions as they do in Eddic mythology?

Secondly, how would you perceive a "deity" like Holda/Holle whose only references seem to exist in post-conversion continental traditions? Would she be seen as a "new deity"? Or given that her functions overlap to some extent with Frigga and Freya, could Holle be the post-Ragnarok version of those Goddesses?

Finally, how would you perceive the existence of deities mentioned as dying in Ragnarok who continued to have some role in folklore? Is Odin's role as one of the leaders of the Wild Hunt a "new" function for a deity who no longer functions as the sort of "King of Asgard"?