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Author Topic: Talking to the dead. Heathen / Jewish parallels.  (Read 1929 times)

Mark C.

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Talking to the dead. Heathen / Jewish parallels.
« on: January 22, 2015, 08:50:38 am »
I watched this documentary on Kabbalah yesterday. At 1:03:05 there is a bit about the “Jewish Soul Complex” which explains the view there are numerous parts to the soul (one which stays in the grave; one which goes to heaven; one which dissolves back into god).

I don’t buy the “soul complex” (as put forward in detail by Steven Flowers / Edred Thorson and others) as an authentic heathen idea. However, there a notation that the dead can reside in numerous places in the lore.

It’s always struck me that this idea still exists today in that the people can simultaneously believe the dead can hear us when we talk to them at their grave, gifts (flowers and cards) left at the grave are appreciated, the dead are in the “other world”, the dead watch over us, and the dead can be reborn all at the same time.

I know that in Christianity the dead are “dead” until judgement day, and that attempting to commune with the dead is strictly prohibited. However, I was unaware that there is a Jewish tradition of the dead residing in the grave, that they can be talked to in that location, and that they have a wider influence away from the grave by which to enact prayers made to them. While different from the Heathen worldview, there is some cross over there which is interesting.

You need to watch the full section (only a few minutes long) to get the Heathen / Jewish parallels.

Mark C.

YouTube Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppT8JK1loSg&feature=youtu.be&t=1h3m5s

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppT8JK1loSg&feature=youtu.be&t=1h3m5s[/video]

Juniperberry

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Re: Talking to the dead. Heathen / Jewish parallels.
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2015, 12:54:08 pm »
Quote from: Mark C.;169750
I watched this documentary on Kabbalah yesterday. At 1:03:05 there is a bit about the “Jewish Soul Complex” which explains the view there are numerous parts to the soul (one which stays in the grave; one which goes to heaven; one which dissolves back into god).


Hi Mark, good to see you again!

Quote
Idon’t buy the “soul complex” (as put forward in detail by Steven Flowers / Edred Thorson and others) as an authentic heathen idea. However, there a notation that the dead can reside in numerous places in the lore.


It's been awhile since I've done my "homework", but I think there's a good case for a heathen specific soul-complex. There are N.European beliefs in coexisting hamr, hugr, fylgja, and hamnigja,  parts of a person's spirit/soul/vitality/animus.

Quote
It’s always struck me that this idea still exists today in that the people can simultaneously believe the dead can hear us when we talk to them at their grave, gifts (flowers and cards) left at the grave are appreciated, the dead are in the “other world”, the dead watch over us, and the dead can be reborn all at the same time.


Which I think is explained in the different functions of the soul-compex I mentioned above.

Quote
know that in Christianity the dead are “dead” until judgement day, and that attempting to commune with the dead is strictly prohibited. However, I was unaware that there is a Jewish tradition of the dead residing in the grave, that they can be talked to in that location, and that they have a wider influence away from the grave by which to enact prayers made to them. While different from the Heathen worldview, there is some cross over there which is interesting.

You need to watch the full section (only a few minutes long) to get the Heathen / Jewish parallels.

Mark C.

YouTube Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppT8JK1loSg&feature=youtu.be&t=1h3m5s

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppT8JK1loSg&feature=youtu.be&t=1h3m5s[/video]


I haven't watched the clip yet, but I want to say that many religions have cults of the dead. So I think many worldviews would have that in common. Is there specific rituals that are strikingly similar in Jewish practice? Otherwise, I'm a little underwhelmed by the comparison.
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Re: Talking to the dead. Heathen / Jewish parallels.
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2015, 06:45:11 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;169852
It's been awhile since I've done my "homework", but I think there's a good case for a heathen specific soul-complex. There are N.European beliefs in coexisting hamr, hugr, fylgja, and hamnigja,  parts of a person's spirit/soul/vitality/animus.

 
For those people who want to follow up on this, a relevant author is Claude Lecouteux.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

DavidMcCann

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Re: Talking to the dead. Heathen / Jewish parallels.
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2015, 12:13:26 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;169852
It's been awhile since I've done my "homework", but I think there's a good case for a heathen specific soul-complex. There are N.European beliefs in coexisting hamr, hugr, fylgja, and hamnigja,  parts of a person's spirit/soul/vitality/animus.

I want to say that many religions have cults of the dead.

If the Germanic peoples view the soul as having, or being, multiple elements, they were in good company. Ancient Egypt and much of Africa and the Americas have the concept. It's been suggested that it comes from the practice of shamanism. If the soul is actually in another realm during shamanic journeys, then there must be another part which keeps the body alive. Certainly the absence of a belief in multiple souls among the Aztec and Inca correlates with their apparent lack of shamans. I shall have to hunt down those Norse terms, and learn more!

Cults of the dead seem to exist everywhere except where the idea of universal reincarnation holds sway. It would be a bit pointless for an Indian to make offerings to his grandfather, if that soul is now a teenager in Spain! The African idea is that the dead whom you knew personally are the "living dead", who still take an interest in you. The rest are uninvolved, or take a broader view. The ancient Canaanites certainly had a cult of the dead, so the Jewish folk practice may be a genuine pagan survival.
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