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Author Topic: Thoughts on Deity  (Read 3561 times)

makaros

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Thoughts on Deity
« on: January 02, 2015, 01:05:55 am »
Hi all, this is a pretty lengthy post.  I’ve been doing quite a bit of thinking and thought I would share here to see what others think and whether you view things in a similar way.

After a lot of thinking, reading, and writing, I feel at this point pretty comfortable with calling myself an animist.  I don’t deny that everything as spirit, but I do question whether everything is tethered.  Rather, it seems how willing we are to enter the Togetherness depends on how consciously united we are with the universe.  That is, there is a latent channel, perhaps Awen (as described in Celtic Magic by Kristoffer Hughes), that courses through all beings and things, but we also independent of the Source in our own way.  Much like all creatures breathe the same air and share that air with one another (the air in my lungs has been in the lungs of squirrels, deer, frogs, cats, dogs, people alive, people dead, the dinosaurs), the Force/Great Spirit/All flows through each of us.  But this does not necessarily make the thing unitary.  I am no more air because I breathe than I am water because I drink it.  I am no more the All than the spirit of another person – rather, I am connected to both through that latent, powerful channel.  I think this describes animism in its pluralistic worldview rather than a monistic one rather well.

Coming to that conclusion led me to two questions (as I’m currently looking at re-looking at Wicca and giving it a thorough vetting first to make sure I’m not just feeding the whims of the moment):

1)   Is the All/Source/Progenitor divisible into gender forms?
2)   Which do I find most convincing to complement animism as an explanation for the creation and sustenance of the universe: pantheism, panentheism, or pandeism?

For the first, I decided that even if it is not objectively true that divinity is divisible into gender forms of masculine and feminine, it is pretty clear to me that it is how divine beings have revealed themselves to humans for thousands (if not tens of thousands) of years.  I don’t feel comfortable denying that.

For the second, I took a look at pandeism since I’m not so familiar with it.  The basic definition I came across on Wikipedia describes it as the belief that the creator of the universe actually became the universe, and so ceased to exist as a separate entity.

Anyone familiar with Egyptian/Kemetic cosmology will find this idea interesting, since as described in Temple of the Cosmos by Jeremy Naydler, the cosmogony of Heliopolis tells that Atum outpoured himself from Nun, the primordial nothingness and in Becoming became Kheprer, and then in "a bird of light" becomes "the primeval form of the god Ra." (loc 760 in the Kindle e-book version)  It could be argued that the Atum-Kheprer aspects of this trinity cease to really exist in a relatable way, and Ra goes on.

In a similar vein of thought, I began to wonder if the Progenitor (a kickass name and not culture-specific for our purposes) gave birth, or outpoured, or caused into creation the Universe, and in that single act, “shards” of Itself were spread through the Big Bang and its essence was transferred into the Universe, thus immediately ceasing to exist outside of it.  No longer being One, it became many.  Much like in physical reality in which the primordial soup of the universe eventually coalesced into galaxies and stars and planets, perhaps the non-physical coalesced into discernible beings – gods – who were powerful enough to influence and channel the powers and mysteries of the Progenitor?

I think it’s here where mythologies we know of might begin to step in and provide the information and stories we know.  So I come to pandeistic animistic polytheism.  Interesting, right?

But I think it works, for me at least.  The pandeistic framework allows me to understand Creation in a way that makes sense, does not necessarily contradict science, and hypothesizes nothing about the nature of deity right now.  It simply provides a good foundation the way I’ve interpreted it.  I thought it was helpful to me so I just wanted to share here as well and see what others think. :)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 01:06:59 am by makaroð »

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Re: Thoughts on Deity
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2015, 11:01:04 am »
Quote from: makaroð;168565
Hi all, this is a pretty lengthy post.  I’ve been doing quite a bit of thinking and thought I would share here to see what others think and whether you view things in a similar way.

 
Good that you've sorted it out, because those questions you asked can only be answered by yourself.

Ponder

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Re: Thoughts on Deity
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2015, 05:38:48 pm »
Quote from: makaroð;168565
Hi all, this is a pretty lengthy post.  I’ve been doing quite a bit of thinking and thought I would share here to see what others think and whether you view things in a similar way.


Your views are certainly interesting. Mine have some similarities and some differences.

I am a panentheist. Animism isn't a part of my belief system.

I tend to view gods less as 'shards' and more as manifestations of God, or thoughtforms that can lead us to contemplate the Divine (which amounts to the same thing, pretty much).

Tay Redgrave

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Re: Thoughts on Deity
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2015, 01:28:07 am »
Quote from: makaroð;168565
Hi all, this is a pretty lengthy post.  I’ve been doing quite a bit of thinking and thought I would share here to see what others think and whether you view things in a similar way.
I have some similar views - I believe that humanity and the Divine (and all of Life, material and spiritual, in general) are interconnected to the All/Source/Universe (as I have sometimes called it) but we are also independent from it as well. I've realized through reading your post, I have a similar view on Life (spiritual and material life, again) are "shards" of this Source, which may explain why I feel gods can tap into or channel Power far more than humans, who seem to have to work for it, if that is the path they have chosen to take. (Also might be why Deities can see further than us, but I digress.)

I also had found myself questioning a lot on whether the Source was merely a concept or God, but by looking at pandeism, I feel I found out something that could provide an answer for me... so you actually helped me out a little with finding a way to conceptualize this viewpoint further. ;) Thank you for that!
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 01:30:00 am by Tay Redgrave »

Freesia

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Re: Thoughts on Deity
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2015, 02:15:14 am »
Quote from: LuciferaRose;169350
I have some similar views - I believe that humanity and the Divine (and all of Life, material and spiritual, in general) are interconnected to the All/Source/Universe (as I have sometimes called it) but we are also independent from it as well. I've realized through reading your post, I have a similar view on Life (spiritual and material life, again) are "shards" of this Source, which may explain why I feel gods can tap into or channel Power far more than humans, who seem to have to work for it, if that is the path they have chosen to take. (Also might be why Deities can see further than us, but I digress.)

I also had found myself questioning a lot on whether the Source was merely a concept or God, but by looking at pandeism, I feel I found out something that could provide an answer for me... so you actually helped me out a little with finding a way to conceptualize this viewpoint further. ;) Thank you for that!

 
I agree. This post really helped me synthesize my viewpoint as well. I am so glad I decided to stay with this forum and get other ideas of how the universe and deity relate to each other.

Kath

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Re: Thoughts on Deity
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2015, 05:35:14 pm »
Quote from: makaroð;168565
Hi all, this is a pretty lengthy post.  I’ve been doing quite a bit of thinking and thought I would share here to see what others think and whether you view things in a similar way.

 
I realize this thread is a few months old, but I just wanted to add my thoughts seeing as your ideas really resonated with me.

While I definitely think the questions you are asking can only be answered by you, I think pantheism, panentheism, and pandeism would answer them differently.

Quote from: makaroð;168565
1)   Is the All/Source/Progenitor divisible into gender forms?


With pantheism, I believe the answer is yes. Since the Source would be the universe, and the universe (influencing flora, fauna, etc.) is comprised of different genders on the spectrum, the Source would be many and all genders. However, there would not be a separate divine identity for the Source, for all of the natural world in pantheism is divine. Grass is the Source, water is the Source, etc. All is divine, and though divided into different forms/role, it is part of the Source. (Whether the roles are connected as "one" or not is up to personal interpretation I think.)

With panentheism, I feel a stronger yes. Not only is the Source the universe, but the universe is within the Source - which can be a singular deity, multiple deities, or a "cosmic force". As explained above, the universe is comprised of many genders, and if the divine were the universe itself, those genders should apply to it. (In my opinion of course. It is important to note that when I mention being a specific gender, I am included lack of gender as an option, or gender neutrality as well!) As for the divine being outside the universe, this can be whatever deities (or force) you believe in - which can have genders.

With pandeism, the answer is a bit more difficult. It can go two ways, I think: The first way, the answer would be the same as pantheism. Being that the creator of the universe IS the universe (and the universe includes many gendered forms) then yes, the Source/Creator/Etc. would have gender/s. The second way is that it is not knowable whether or not the Source had any gender. As the Source ceased to exist when the universe was created, all that's left is the separate entities which have unique genders and roles. I know very little about pandeism though, so forgive me if I am incorrect in my interpretations.

Quote from: makaroð;168565
2)   Which do I find most convincing to complement animism as an explanation for the creation and sustenance of the universe: pantheism, panentheism, or pandeism?


Again, this is something that can only be answered by yourself. However, here are my two cents:

All three can compliment animism, in their own way, given that with all three the divine is a part of the universe itself. (Thus nature containing "spirits".) Although, animism has a lot more focus on the individual soul rather than a single divine spirit connecting us all. These ideas can work together though, depending on your beliefs.

Some more structured believes may say that animism encompasses the belief that there is no separation between the spiritual world and natural world (no Source/Deities outside the Universe - all contained within - which doesn't work with panentheism) but personally I feel you can have both. Both souls/spirits within the natural world and another realm outside the universe where the source dwells. Of course, you could also say were are within the Source, so truly there is no "outside" the universe if the Source IS the universe... now I'm just confusing myself hahaha.

Anyway, I found your thoughts insightful and I am going to be looking into animistic polytheistic panentheism myself. Whew, say that three times fast!
“There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. You certainly usually find something,
if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after.”

- J.R.R. Tolkien

makaros

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Re: Thoughts on Deity
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2015, 04:21:21 pm »
Quote from: Kath;174213
I realize this thread is a few months old, but I just wanted to add my thoughts seeing as your ideas really resonated with me.

While I definitely think the questions you are asking can only be answered by you, I think pantheism, panentheism, and pandeism would answer them differently.

Thank you!  I've branched out a little after reading some more - I'm not so convinced pandeism is my answer.  I think I was very concerned with making my worldview fully consistent with that of evolutionary science and physics and after reading The Wakeful World (which I strongly recommend for anyone interested in animism) I realized I was framing my entire concept from a materialist perspective.  Food for thought.

Besides, I think I was envisioning pandeism incorrectly but I'm still fuzzy on it.  Pandeism seems to be kind of final - like, no, God was once alive but now is definitely dead.  The way I was imagining it is more panentheistic deity ==> pantheistic deity with the creation of the universe.  So God/the All/Source/Progenitor existed outside of the universe and then on the creation of the universe, ceased to exist outside of it but continues to exist indefinitely.  This would solve the problem of first cause while also solving the problem of something existing outside of the existence of everything. :eek:  Of course, the inevitable question of "where did that come from" pops up, which is why now I'm a little okay with embracing the mystery of origins.  And I think this explanation is a little more solid than the thesis of "the universe has always existed and always will" because, well, that doesn't appear to be true.  But the *All* could exist eternally without the universe having to do so in this worldview I've laid out.


Quote
Some more structured believes may say that animism encompasses the belief that there is no separation between the spiritual world and natural world (no Source/Deities outside the Universe - all contained within - which doesn't work with panentheism) but personally I feel you can have both. Both souls/spirits within the natural world and another realm outside the universe where the source dwells. Of course, you could also say were are within the Source, so truly there is no "outside" the universe if the Source IS the universe... now I'm just confusing myself hahaha.

Anyway, I found your thoughts insightful and I am going to be looking into animistic polytheistic panentheism myself. Whew, say that three times fast!

I think that works, too! :)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 04:21:53 pm by makaroð »

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