Author Topic: New Pagan: Dianic (Read 5332 times)

GoddessGal · « **on:** December 30, 2014, 08:03:29 am »

Hello I'm a new Pagan, glad to have found this forum. I am interested in the Dianic tradition. Any one else out there a Dianic?

Blessed Be

Valeria Crowe · « **Reply #1 on:** December 30, 2014, 12:41:37 pm »

Quote from: GoddessGal;168334

Hello I'm a new Pagan, glad to have found this forum. I am interested in the Dianic tradition. Any one else out there a Dianic?

Blessed Be

I don't believe you'll find many Dianics here, certain aspects of the Dianic faith's relationship to the Trans* community sits poorly with the Social Justice-concious majority here, but you'll find quite a great deal of general oagan knowledge.

GoddessGal · « **Reply #2 on:** December 30, 2014, 04:07:21 pm »

Ok, thanks you for the info. I'm still very much looking forward to learning. Blessed be.

stephyjh · « **Reply #3 on:** December 30, 2014, 05:41:12 pm »

Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;168358

I don't believe you'll find many Dianics here, certain aspects of the Dianic faith's relationship to the Trans* community sits poorly with the Social Justice-concious majority here, but you'll find quite a great deal of general oagan knowledge.

Yeah, nothing like saying "trans women aren't really women" to alienate people who actually have trans people in our lives whom we care about. You know, before she became so nasty and bigoted, Z. Budapest made some real contributions to the neopagan movement, but the things she's said and done lately, and the fact that so many Dianic groups back her without question, make me incredibly wary. It wouldn't have been a fit for me anyway, because I'm more the hard-crunchy variety of polytheist rather than believing in The Goddess (TM), but hearing the things she's said, I just go, "...oh gods no." I respect those who have found spiritual fulfillment in a Dianic path, but I'm seriously squicked by the history of transphobia there.

SunflowerP · « **Reply #4 on:** December 30, 2014, 06:56:32 pm »

Quote from: GoddessGal;168392

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Sunflower, TC Forum Staff

SunflowerP · « **Reply #5 on:** December 30, 2014, 07:06:27 pm »

Quote from: GoddessGal;168334

Hello I'm a new Pagan, glad to have found this forum. I am interested in the Dianic tradition. Any one else out there a Dianic?

Just to clarify here: others have taken for granted that you meant Z Budapest's Dianic tradition (aka Feminist Dianic). That's the Dianic that's most well-known in other places, but I see you're in Texas, home of the McFarland Dianic tradition, so it seems sensible to ask, which Dianic tradition has caught your interest?

(There are also other ways the label 'Dianic' is used, but they are smaller, more obscure, and/or not references to a specific cohesive tradition.)

Sunflower

SunflowerP · « **Reply #6 on:** December 30, 2014, 07:15:30 pm »

Quote from: stephyjh;168400

You know, before she became so nasty and bigoted, Z. Budapest made some real contributions to the neopagan movement, but the things she's said and done lately, and the fact that so many Dianic groups back her without question, make me incredibly wary.

Just FYI, Z Budapest's transphobia is not a recent development. It's been her stance, and that of much of the tradition, for decades.

Dianic groups choosing not to follow that stance are also not a new development, but up until a few years ago they generally did so quietly, as a matter of group autonomy, rather than challenging the trad as a whole.

Sunflower

GoddessGal · « **Reply #7 on:** December 30, 2014, 07:15:34 pm »

Quote from: stephyjh;168400

Yeah, nothing like saying "trans women aren't really women" to alienate people who actually have trans people in our lives whom we care about. You know, before she became so nasty and bigoted, Z. Budapest made some real contributions to the neopagan movement, but the things she's said and done lately, and the fact that so many Dianic groups back her without question, make me incredibly wary. It wouldn't have been a fit for me anyway, because I'm more the hard-crunchy variety of polytheist rather than believing in The Goddess (TM), but hearing the things she's said, I just go, "...oh gods no." I respect those who have found spiritual fulfillment in a Dianic path, but I'm seriously squicked by the history of transphobia there.

I am *very* new and was unaware of the trans alienation. I am a lesbian and have several trans friends. I am just learning and see there is a difference between Dianic traditions. I certainly meant no ill intention by posting.

GoddessGal · « **Reply #8 on:** December 30, 2014, 07:18:28 pm »

Quote from: SunflowerP;168406

Just to clarify here: others have taken for granted that you meant Z Budapest's Dianic tradition (aka Feminist Dianic). That's the Dianic that's most well-known in other places, but I see you're in Texas, home of the McFarland Dianic tradition, so it seems sensible to ask, which Dianic tradition has caught your interest?

(There are also other ways the label 'Dianic' is used, but they are smaller, more obscure, and/or not references to a specific cohesive tradition.)

Sunflower

There are several things I like about both traditions, and things that just dont 'feel' fitting. So to be honest, I don't know.

stephyjh · « **Reply #9 on:** December 30, 2014, 07:19:07 pm »

Quote from: SunflowerP;168407

Just FYI, Z Budapest's transphobia is not a recent development. It's been her stance, and that of much of the tradition, for decades.

Dianic groups choosing not to follow that stance are also not a new development, but up until a few years ago they generally did so quietly, as a matter of group autonomy, rather than challenging the trad as a whole.

Sunflower

Rephrasing: she's made major contributions and I'm not taking any of that away from her, but in recent years that's been completely overshadowed by her transphobia and her nastiness, and with good reason. Thanks for clarifying.

GoddessGal · « **Reply #10 on:** December 30, 2014, 07:33:01 pm »

Quote from: GoddessGal;168409

There are several things I like about both traditions, and things that just dont 'feel' fitting. So to be honest, I don't know.

Can you point me in a good direction to possibly compare and contrast the two types of Dianic traditions? I'm not finding much of substance on Google. Thank you

SunflowerP · « **Reply #11 on:** December 31, 2014, 05:08:08 am »

Quote from: GoddessGal;168414

Can you point me in a good direction to possibly compare and contrast the two types of Dianic traditions? I'm not finding much of substance on Google. Thank you

Here's the link to the McFarland Dianic Tradition home page; that will be by far your best source on that trad. Because it is an initiatory tradition, you won't find information on how to be this sort of Dianic on your own, but there is quite a bit of info that should give you an idea of what it's like.

For Z Budapest's Dianic, here is Z's own site about it, and here is the site of Temple of Diana, a particularly well-known and active group.

And here you can find information about some former Budapest Dianics who broke, very publicly, from the trad over the transphobia Cuthwin and Stephy and I were talking about.

Sunflower

GoddessGal · « **Reply #12 on:** December 31, 2014, 06:10:52 am »

Quote from: SunflowerP;168444

Here's the link to the McFarland Dianic Tradition home page; that will be by far your best source on that trad. Because it is an initiatory tradition, you won't find information on how to be this sort of Dianic on your own, but there is quite a bit of info that should give you an idea of what it's like.

For Z Budapest's Dianic, here is Z's own site about it, and here is the site of Temple of Diana, a particularly well-known and active group.

And here you can find information about some former Budapest Dianics who broke, very publicly, from the trad over the transphobia Cuthwin and Stephy and I were talking about.

Sunflower

Thank you

GoddessGal · « **Reply #13 on:** December 31, 2014, 06:32:38 am »

Quote from: SunflowerP;168444

Here's the link to the McFarland Dianic Tradition home page; that will be by far your best source on that trad. Because it is an initiatory tradition, you won't find information on how to be this sort of Dianic on your own, but there is quite a bit of info that should give you an idea of what it's like.

For Z Budapest's Dianic, here is Z's own site about it, and here is the site of Temple of Diana, a particularly well-known and active group.

And here you can find information about some former Budapest Dianics who broke, very publicly, from the trad over the transphobia Cuthwin and Stephy and I were talking about.

Sunflower

That was a very good article, and their term "pan dianic" definitely resonates well with me versus the exclusionary dianic tradition of Z.

Louisvillian · « **Reply #14 on:** January 05, 2015, 02:42:40 am »

Quote from: GoddessGal;168334

thread

I'm quoting the first post because a quote line is required, but I'm more responding to the thread as a whole.

I understand the consternation that many feel towards Z. Budapest and other hardline Dianics. Not just for the demonstrated transphobia of her group, but for other issues that have been aired about Dianic witchcraft and Dianic paganism.

But at the same time, I can understand why they have those beliefs. I might not like it or agree with it, but I can see from a historical perspective how and why that developed. They come from a rather old-school mentality, before certain things--like trans rights--became a mainstream part of the public discourse on gender equality. It just wasn't part of Feminism yet. And like a lot of radical feminists from that era, they focused a little too hard on gender essentialism and "purity", and as a consequence became exclusionary towards the growing recognition of transwomen. RationalWiki actually has a rather informative article on the subject.

It's a rather complicated problem because it's very ingrained in the context in which these groups were formed. And stuff at the base is hardest to shake off. These groups formed in the context of radical sections of second-wave feminism. As that wave has given way to the third wave, it's been difficult for some old-school Pagans to conceptualise that change. Age and the fear of change is a factor here, and many of these people who jump-started Neopaganism in the 1960s are well into their seventies and eighties now. To me, it's more tragic than outrageous. So many of our Pagan elders are, well, old and stuck in some rather old ways of thinking and doing things. It's unfortunate.

But, as noted, there are plenty of Dianic groups and traditions that are more accepting of trans rights. There's people that have adapted, and rolled with the times. I'd look into that, but don't be discourage from the prospect of Dianic Paganism as a whole. While not my cup of tea, it is a rather fascinating sect. And it was enormously important in the growth and maturation of Neopaganism as a religious, social, and political movement in the 20th century.

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