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Author Topic: Questions on Gotia Working  (Read 4400 times)

moongate

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Questions on Gotia Working
« on: December 20, 2014, 12:58:00 pm »
I am currently trying to reach out to those of like-minds so that I can get a little bit of perspective on my spirituality so I began looking into local meetups. I came across this one:

http://www.meetup.com/Vancouver-Magick-Occult-meetup/events/219079774/

My first instinct on reading this is WTFH?! No protective circle. That is the first thing that concerns me. Having done things like that with extremely negative results I assume that it's generally a bad idea to do this.
Then as I thought about it I began to wonder why. Why would people do this? Why call down a demon? Why do it without any means of protection? Is it arrogance that nothing will happen to them? Is it ignorance in that they don't know any better? Are they doing something else that will keep them out of harm's way? Perhaps I am the ignorant one here. So does anyone here know why people would summon a demon without a circle?

Valeria Crowe

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Re: Questions on Gotia Working
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2014, 01:34:55 pm »
Quote from: moongate;167663
I am currently trying to reach out to those of like-minds so that I can get a little bit of perspective on my spirituality so I began looking into local meetups. I came across this one:

http://www.meetup.com/Vancouver-Magick-Occult-meetup/events/219079774/

My first instinct on reading this is WTFH?! No protective circle. That is the first thing that concerns me. Having done things like that with extremely negative results I assume that it's generally a bad idea to do this.
Then as I thought about it I began to wonder why. Why would people do this? Why call down a demon? Why do it without any means of protection? Is it arrogance that nothing will happen to them? Is it ignorance in that they don't know any better? Are they doing something else that will keep them out of harm's way? Perhaps I am the ignorant one here. So does anyone here know why people would summon a demon without a circle?


Why call a demon? Depends. Are you thinking of demons as purely malevolent beings who exist to harm others? Can't think of a reason to do that. Even the demons of the Ars Goetia had very benevolent attitudes (some of them).  

Although Buer isn't from the Goetia, which makes him referring to the Goetia odd. And he mispelled it. Maybe he's just an ignorant nitwit?

Not everyone thinks of demons as evil. They doubtless don't.

The Ars Goetia involved the idea that demons, being subservient to God, could be commanded in his name by Christians, so possibly the fellow doesn't think he needs to be protected from the beings he's summoning. Or he might be a Satanist or demonolater, I didn't really bother to check.

Or his rituals may be based on a tradition which doesn't use a circle, which is largely  a Crowleyite invention in the sense most modern practicioners use it, IIRC, and the Goetia predates it.

All sorts of reasons not to cast a circle. Also all sorts of reasons not to join up with this guy.

Sorry if this is rambling, caffiene-buzzed and sleep-deprived.
"This is a sorrow-spider. Which end do you hold it by? TRICK QUESTION!"

Emma Eldritch

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Re: Questions on Gotia Working
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2014, 02:46:38 pm »
Quote from: moongate;167663
I am currently trying to reach out to those of like-minds so that I can get a little bit of perspective on my spirituality so I began looking into local meetups. I came across this one:

http://www.meetup.com/Vancouver-Magick-Occult-meetup/events/219079774/

My first instinct on reading this is WTFH?! No protective circle. That is the first thing that concerns me. Having done things like that with extremely negative results I assume that it's generally a bad idea to do this.
Then as I thought about it I began to wonder why. Why would people do this? Why call down a demon? Why do it without any means of protection? Is it arrogance that nothing will happen to them? Is it ignorance in that they don't know any better? Are they doing something else that will keep them out of harm's way? Perhaps I am the ignorant one here. So does anyone here know why people would summon a demon without a circle?

 
My first thought is that anyone planning an outdoor ritual in Vancouver this time of year is a bigger optimist than I will ever be.

Anyway. After reading Cuthwin's post I googled Buer and got wikipedia telling me he shows up in the "16th century grimoire Pseudomonarchia Daemonum" and is the dude whose image you'll sometimes see pop up in pictures of demons - this one here. Apparently he teaches philosophy and herbalism.

Getting back to the original question...  I'm not a goetic practitioner myself but I've studied what I can about it, and the method I'm used to is where the magician is in the circle and the spirit summoned into a triangle a few feet away. Although there is no protective circle, it's possible that the group leader is using some other method of containment for the spirit and therefore sees no use for one. She says she uses "a traditional style" but I'll be darned if I know what that means.

I do know of a few magicians online who advocate a more casual style of interaction with goetic spirits - Jason Miller aka Inominandum is the one that comes to mind, but I don't think he actually posted specifics on his ritual space construction so much as what his attitude is like toward the entities. Anyway it's possible that the group leader already has a relationship with this spirit and they've got some sort of arrangement going or something.

It's one of those cases where ultimately I think you just have to decide what you're comfortable with. If you're really curious about what this group is doing and how, you could e-mail for more information perhaps. But if the thought of working with demons with no circle makes you nervous, just don't go.

RandallS

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Re: Questions on Gotia Working
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2014, 08:01:04 am »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;167667
Getting back to the original question...  I'm not a goetic practitioner myself but I've studied what I can about it, and the method I'm used to is where the magician is in the circle and the spirit summoned into a triangle a few feet away. Although there is no protective circle, it's possible that the group leader is using some other method of containment for the spirit and therefore sees no use for one. She says she uses "a traditional style" but I'll be darned if I know what that means.

Without knowing a lot more about the planned ritual, I can't say much more than this. It might be fine, or it might be something I would want to avoid like the plague. Given the lack of info, I'd probably opt for avoiding.
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moongate

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Re: Questions on Gotia Working
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2014, 08:09:34 pm »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;167664
Why call a demon? Depends. Are you thinking of demons as purely malevolent beings who exist to harm others? Can't think of a reason to do that. Even the demons of the Ars Goetia had very benevolent attitudes (some of them).  

Although Buer isn't from the Goetia, which makes him referring to the Goetia odd. And he mispelled it. Maybe he's just an ignorant nitwit?

Not everyone thinks of demons as evil. They doubtless don't.

The Ars Goetia involved the idea that demons, being subservient to God, could be commanded in his name by Christians, so possibly the fellow doesn't think he needs to be protected from the beings he's summoning. Or he might be a Satanist or demonolater, I didn't really bother to check.

Or his rituals may be based on a tradition which doesn't use a circle, which is largely  a Crowleyite invention in the sense most modern practicioners use it, IIRC, and the Goetia predates it.

All sorts of reasons not to cast a circle. Also all sorts of reasons not to join up with this guy.

Sorry if this is rambling, caffiene-buzzed and sleep-deprived.

 
Your post sounds reasonable (I go through much of my life high on coffee and low on sleep ;) )

I don't view demons as necessarily evil. From what I see, they are Christianity's way of absorbing multitheistic religions which would also explain why they are seen in a negative light.

From what I'm seeing of the post, it looks like they are attempting some sort of "extreme witchcraft" where they don't feel that they need to protect themselves. I know that there are sigils that you can carry for protection... Like I said, the more I think about it, the more curious I am about how they plan to do this.

At the end of the day, I really just want to ask them if I can sit and quietly observe, although I don't know how well that would go over with them.

moongate

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Re: Questions on Gotia Working
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2014, 08:20:09 pm »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;167667
My first thought is that anyone planning an outdoor ritual in Vancouver this time of year is a bigger optimist than I will ever be.

Anyway. After reading Cuthwin's post I googled Buer and got wikipedia telling me he shows up in the "16th century grimoire Pseudomonarchia Daemonum" and is the dude whose image you'll sometimes see pop up in pictures of demons - this one here. Apparently he teaches philosophy and herbalism.

Getting back to the original question...  I'm not a goetic practitioner myself but I've studied what I can about it, and the method I'm used to is where the magician is in the circle and the spirit summoned into a triangle a few feet away. Although there is no protective circle, it's possible that the group leader is using some other method of containment for the spirit and therefore sees no use for one. She says she uses "a traditional style" but I'll be darned if I know what that means.

I do know of a few magicians online who advocate a more casual style of interaction with goetic spirits - Jason Miller aka Inominandum is the one that comes to mind, but I don't think he actually posted specifics on his ritual space construction so much as what his attitude is like toward the entities. Anyway it's possible that the group leader already has a relationship with this spirit and they've got some sort of arrangement going or something.

It's one of those cases where ultimately I think you just have to decide what you're comfortable with. If you're really curious about what this group is doing and how, you could e-mail for more information perhaps. But if the thought of working with demons with no circle makes you nervous, just don't go.

 
Yep there is supposed to be a Festival of Lights this evening and it will be a soggy one I think (and in my neck of the woods, foggy).

Outdoor ritual aside, your description of summoning the demon into a triangle sounds the most plausible. I mean looking at the group, they've been around for a little while now so I imagine they have some sort of system setup already otherwise the group would have dissipated by now.

I'll likely email them for more information.

moongate

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Re: Questions on Gotia Working
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2014, 08:21:23 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;167692
Without knowing a lot more about the planned ritual, I can't say much more than this. It might be fine, or it might be something I would want to avoid like the plague. Given the lack of info, I'd probably opt for avoiding.

 
My basic plan to to email them for more information.

Emma Eldritch

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Re: Questions on Gotia Working
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2014, 09:11:35 pm »
Quote from: moongate;167791
Yep there is supposed to be a Festival of Lights this evening and it will be a soggy one I think (and in my neck of the woods, foggy).

Outdoor ritual aside, your description of summoning the demon into a triangle sounds the most plausible. I mean looking at the group, they've been around for a little while now so I imagine they have some sort of system setup already otherwise the group would have dissipated by now.

I'll likely email them for more information.

 
I'm downtown and it's friggin cold right now so I hope whatever they're doing they wear warm shoes.

Yeah, I'd probably e-mail em if I were you, to get a better judge of how they handle questions. That tells a lot about a group I think.

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