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Author Topic: Utgard and Utgard-Loki  (Read 1675 times)

TheElegantShadow

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Utgard and Utgard-Loki
« on: December 17, 2014, 05:05:33 pm »
A while ago I read through the story where Thor, along with Thialfi and Loki, traveled to Utgard (which I'm fairly certain is another name for Jotunheim) and came across several figures and trials that where all illusions created by the being Utgard-Loki. Now, I recently I read this: http://celto-germanic.blogspot.com/2013/08/loki-logi-and-utgard-loki-three.html which puts forth the notion that Loki, Logi (wildfire), and Utgard-Loki (Loki of The Outerlands (I THINK is what it translates to.) are all the same being or at least aspects of one centric figure. Now, in Celtic Mythology, The Morrigan is known to either be a triad of three separate Goddesses or a single Goddess with three aspects, so the idea of Loki being a male equivalent to the Triple Goddess Archetype isn't too absurd, since Celtic and Germanic Mythology and Culture have some similarities and even have crossed into one another at some point. That said, I am by no means a scholar on either subject matter, so I'd like to see what you guys think.

Also, I'd love to hear what your opinions on what the meaning behind the story itself is and why you believe in said opinion. :)

Also, there's a little thing in there that also claims that Loki was, at one point, a Hearth God and that he can be equated to the Christian Lucifer which... I'm not sure of, but given the way Loki shifts from a lovable trickster to the cause of the end of the world and actively going against those he worked beside throughout most of the myths DOES remind me a bit of Lucifer betraying Heaven and Yahweh and him being thrown into Hell where he then became the demonic being known as Satan whose ends are a bit like what happens in Ragnarok.

...I ramble too much, but you get my point. Thoughts? :o
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Re: Utgard and Utgard-Loki
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2014, 04:40:59 pm »
Quote from: TheElegantShadow;167556
A while ago I read through the story where Thor, along with Thialfi and Loki, traveled to Utgard (which I'm fairly certain is another name for Jotunheim) and came across several figures and trials that where all illusions created by the being Utgard-Loki. Now, I recently I read this: http://celto-germanic.blogspot.com/2013/08/loki-logi-and-utgard-loki-three.html which puts forth the notion that Loki, Logi (wildfire), and Utgard-Loki (Loki of The Outerlands (I THINK is what it translates to.) are all the same being or at least aspects of one centric figure. Now, in Celtic Mythology, The Morrigan is known to either be a triad of three separate Goddesses or a single Goddess with three aspects, so the idea of Loki being a male equivalent to the Triple Goddess Archetype isn't too absurd, since Celtic and Germanic Mythology and Culture have some similarities and even have crossed into one another at some point. That said, I am by no means a scholar on either subject matter, so I'd like to see what you guys think.

Also, I'd love to hear what your opinions on what the meaning behind the story itself is and why you believe in said opinion. :)

Also, there's a little thing in there that also claims that Loki was, at one point, a Hearth God and that he can be equated to the Christian Lucifer which... I'm not sure of, but given the way Loki shifts from a lovable trickster to the cause of the end of the world and actively going against those he worked beside throughout most of the myths DOES remind me a bit of Lucifer betraying Heaven and Yahweh and him being thrown into Hell where he then became the demonic being known as Satan whose ends are a bit like what happens in Ragnarok.

...I ramble too much, but you get my point. Thoughts? :o

 

I personally don't think there is enough evidence to say much conclusively about Loki. We don't really know if he was a historically venerated figure, we don't really know if he was associated with fire, we don't know to what extent Snorri shaped his representation in the Prose Edda, and we can't really prove one way or the other if he was identified as Utgard-Loki or Logi. It is possible that he was identified as having three forms, but it's far from conclusive. And unfortunately, I don't think there is much of a prospect of a ton of new evidence coming to light which would prove the three-in-one theory one way or the other.

In terms of Loki's role in Ragnarok, again we can't really say if Loki was a more neutral figure that was further demonized by Snorri, or if he always had a prominent and negative role in Ragnarok. Hell, we can't even really say to what extent Ragnarok represents an indigenous germanic tradition and to what extent Snorri was representing Nordic mythology through a Christian lens.

Because it is possible to interpret Loki's role in the existing mythology in a fairly negative sense in addition to all the ambiguity about his specific function and role, some Heathens (including this one here) don't really deal with Loki. For me, his negative actions in the lore are enough to convince me that my energies are better directed at other members of the pantheon.

However, I should say my personal position (I have a very nice, fairly big family) means that I tend to look for stability and predictability in my life, something I see as being at odds with Loki's nature as a bit of a chaotic force. There are of course many, many people who have crafted rewarding relationships with Loki, so obviously there are a variety of ways modern people can approach him.

Although I feel my Heathen card may be taken away for this, given the difficulties in "proving" any of the prevailing theories about Loki's function and role I feel that personal experience and UPG may in this case may actually be more useful than trying to find an objective truth from the confused fragments we have been left. I do notice that people's interpretations of Loki tend to follow their feelings about more so than the other way around - people with positive experiences of him are more likely to see him as a trickster, anti-hero, or necessary if potentially dangerous chaotic force. People with a negative view of him tend to believe that he is a literary invention of Snorri's or a representation of behaviours (such as oath-breaking, dishonesty, etc.) which were anathema for Germanic pagans.

I personally feel that part of Loki's function is to be a figure of debate and controversy. I think, in a way, it is what he is supposed to do. Regardless of how you feel about Loki, rest assured you will be able to find large groups of people who agree with you (and equally large groups that do not).

If you are interested in the potential links between Loki and fire, I would suggest looking at the following article.

http://polytheist.com/orgrandr-lokean/2014/09/23/a-new-place-for-loki-part-ii/

The author makes some interesting arguments that Loki functioned as a God of the sacrificial fire, much as Agni has in South Asian traditions. Again, it is very difficult to say the article "proves" anything, but it may be a perspective you find useful.
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Juniperberry

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Re: Utgard and Utgard-Loki
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2014, 09:29:54 pm »
Quote from: TheElegantShadow;167556


Also, I'd love to hear what your opinions on what the meaning behind the story itself is and why you believe in said opinion. :)



I haven't read that specific one in awhile, though I do know the basics.

My first thought is that it's a common human experience to have moments in life when the gods are called into question:

Why did they let this happen?
I've been a faithful worshiper, what did I do to deserve this?
Maybe gods aren't worth praying to because they don't/can't answer my prayers.

So I think this particular tale hits on those questions from a personal heathen context and also hits on why, even after these moments, we find ourselves slowly returning to a routine of worship and belief.

We know that the universe was created by chance, and that this first moment created wyrd, and that every action taken continues to build wyrd. We know that at the beginning, at the roots of the Universal tree, three giantesses rule over the Well of wyrd. These women are 'outside', much like Utgard-Loki is 'Outside Loki'.

We know that the gods have wyrd, and that they are also tied to the consequences of it. This is what I think the story of Utgard-Loki represents: the gods fighting their own unique wyrd and being powerless against it, just as we are powerless against our own at times. You can't change the past. You can't go back in time. You can't fight the law of what was bound to happen.  

So sometimes, bad things happen because that's just the way events added up (wyrd), and the gods are powerless sometimes because they are subject to those powers as well. The strength of Thor cannot beat the strength of Thor's wyrd. The fire of Loki cannot burn stronger then the fire of Loki's wyrd. The strength of our spirit cannot defeat the spirit of wyrd.

*Shrug* One layer of it maybe, anyway. :)
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TheElegantShadow

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Re: Utgard and Utgard-Loki
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2014, 01:16:00 am »
Quote from: Megatherium;167600
I personally don't think there is enough evidence to say much conclusively about Loki. We don't really know if he was a historically venerated figure, we don't really know if he was associated with fire, we don't know to what extent Snorri shaped his representation in the Prose Edda, and we can't really prove one way or the other if he was identified as Utgard-Loki or Logi. It is possible that he was identified as having three forms, but it's far from conclusive. And unfortunately, I don't think there is much of a prospect of a ton of new evidence coming to light which would prove the three-in-one theory one way or the other.

In terms of Loki's role in Ragnarok, again we can't really say if Loki was a more neutral figure that was further demonized by Snorri, or if he always had a prominent and negative role in Ragnarok. Hell, we can't even really say to what extent Ragnarok represents an indigenous germanic tradition and to what extent Snorri was representing Nordic mythology through a Christian lens.

Because it is possible to interpret Loki's role in the existing mythology in a fairly negative sense in addition to all the ambiguity about his specific function and role, some Heathens (including this one here) don't really deal with Loki. For me, his negative actions in the lore are enough to convince me that my energies are better directed at other members of the pantheon.

However, I should say my personal position (I have a very nice, fairly big family) means that I tend to look for stability and predictability in my life, something I see as being at odds with Loki's nature as a bit of a chaotic force. There are of course many, many people who have crafted rewarding relationships with Loki, so obviously there are a variety of ways modern people can approach him.

Although I feel my Heathen card may be taken away for this, given the difficulties in "proving" any of the prevailing theories about Loki's function and role I feel that personal experience and UPG may in this case may actually be more useful than trying to find an objective truth from the confused fragments we have been left. I do notice that people's interpretations of Loki tend to follow their feelings about more so than the other way around - people with positive experiences of him are more likely to see him as a trickster, anti-hero, or necessary if potentially dangerous chaotic force. People with a negative view of him tend to believe that he is a literary invention of Snorri's or a representation of behaviours (such as oath-breaking, dishonesty, etc.) which were anathema for Germanic pagans.

I personally feel that part of Loki's function is to be a figure of debate and controversy. I think, in a way, it is what he is supposed to do. Regardless of how you feel about Loki, rest assured you will be able to find large groups of people who agree with you (and equally large groups that do not).

If you are interested in the potential links between Loki and fire, I would suggest looking at the following article.

http://polytheist.com/orgrandr-lokean/2014/09/23/a-new-place-for-loki-part-ii/

The author makes some interesting arguments that Loki functioned as a God of the sacrificial fire, much as Agni has in South Asian traditions. Again, it is very difficult to say the article "proves" anything, but it may be a perspective you find useful.


Well yes, you're right. There isn't a whole lot of information regarding that subject, let alone enough to create a concrete theory on it without a bit of UPG being added to the mix. That said, the idea of it really seemed interesting to me, especially since I've always found it strange how Loki and Utgard-Loki have virtually the same name.

Hmm... it seems that UPG is something that's used to help fill in the gaps and personalize your own practices. I think it's more than reasonable to use it to better make sense of/understand a deity that doesn't have much explanation of the hows and whys of his actions. :o

I know someone who worships Loki and she seems to have a very interesting relationship with him, so I know what you mean on how there seem to be varying opinions on him despite the way he's attested in the stories. :o

Also that article was awesome! I could so see that being a possibility, especially with Loki and Logi's contest and the way the bone part syncs up with the older Heathen customs. The parallels between Loki and Agni are also quite interesting. Thank you for this good read!
 
Quote from: Juniperberry;167617
I haven't read that specific one in awhile, though I do know the basics.

My first thought is that it's a common human experience to have moments in life when the gods are called into question:

Why did they let this happen?
I've been a faithful worshiper, what did I do to deserve this?
Maybe gods aren't worth praying to because they don't/can't answer my prayers.

So I think this particular tale hits on those questions from a personal heathen context and also hits on why, even after these moments, we find ourselves slowly returning to a routine of worship and belief.

We know that the universe was created by chance, and that this first moment created wyrd, and that every action taken continues to build wyrd. We know that at the beginning, at the roots of the Universal tree, three giantesses rule over the Well of wyrd. These women are 'outside', much like Utgard-Loki is 'Outside Loki'.

We know that the gods have wyrd, and that they are also tied to the consequences of it. This is what I think the story of Utgard-Loki represents: the gods fighting their own unique wyrd and being powerless against it, just as we are powerless against our own at times. You can't change the past. You can't go back in time. You can't fight the law of what was bound to happen.  

So sometimes, bad things happen because that's just the way events added up (wyrd), and the gods are powerless sometimes because they are subject to those powers as well. The strength of Thor cannot beat the strength of Thor's wyrd. The fire of Loki cannot burn stronger then the fire of Loki's wyrd. The strength of our spirit cannot defeat the spirit of wyrd.

*Shrug* One layer of it maybe, anyway. :)

 
I actually wasn't aware of the concept of Wyrd until now (Thanks, Wikipedia!), and with now understanding it, I see what you mean. Utgard-Loki represents the forces that even the Gods can't seem to defeat/grasp. THAT'S why I love this mythology. The Gods are so human-like, and even have limitations and face the same trials and tribulations as we do throughout their stories. They fear old age and death, they have aspirations and hopes, and so on. It's so beautiful to see a story like this, which is why it's so close to my heart. ;) <3
"Remember that a question is not a challenge to you as a person, but merely a request for information." I need to remind myself of this, at times. XD

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