collapse

* Recent Posts

"Christ Is King" by Altair
[Today at 01:09:34 am]


Re: Cill Shift Schedule by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 11:04:57 pm]


Re: Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 11:21:37 pm]


Re: Spring Has Sprung! 2024 Edition by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 10:24:10 pm]


Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by Altair
[March 21, 2024, 02:52:34 pm]

Author Topic: Other: Gender-neutral pronouns  (Read 9266 times)

PrincessKLS

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Location: 1983-10-02
  • Posts: 237
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
  • Religion: goddess worship grey, folk magick, hoodoo inspired.
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Gender-neutral pronouns
« on: December 15, 2014, 04:21:48 pm »
I was noticing on this site that there was 2 or 3 separate boxes for the gender-neutral pronouns. I know some like the their/them/they as a singular/plural pronoun but what's the big difference between the "hirs" and "xirs" categories? As well as "ze's"? Like what's the history behind it. I know my LGB history but when it comes to the trans and genderqueer community, I don't know much. I could some enlightenment.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 03:06:05 pm by RandallS »
PrincessKLS

Sarah

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 827
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Gender-neutral pronouns
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2014, 08:09:58 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;167446
I was noticing on this site that there was 2 or 3 separate boxes for the gender-neutral pronouns. I know some like the their/them/they as a singular/plural pronoun but what's the big difference between the "hirs" and "xirs" categories? As well as "ze's"? Like what's the history behind it. I know my LGB history but when it comes to the trans and genderqueer community, I don't know much. I could some enlightenment.

 
Wikipedia has a pretty good overview
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

ailyah

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 11
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • https://circleoftheoldreligion.org/
Re: Gender-neutral pronouns
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2015, 09:02:20 am »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;167446
I was noticing on this site that there was 2 or 3 separate boxes for the gender-neutral pronouns. I know some like the their/them/they as a singular/plural pronoun but what's the big difference between the "hirs" and "xirs" categories? As well as "ze's"? Like what's the history behind it. I know my LGB history but when it comes to the trans and genderqueer community, I don't know much. I could some enlightenment.

 
It really comes down to how a person identifies, and what they are comfortable with. If you were male, you wouldn't very much like being called "Madam, She, Her" just as if you were female (with male pronouns)... The same thing goes with people who identify as both sexes, or neither. As such, a separate set of pronouns are available which allow a person not to be categorised as either male, or female. I think ecauldron did this to show they are open minded, and open hearted, and that everyone is welcome here, and no one should feel ostracised.
High Priestess of the coven Circle of the Old Religion

~Blessed Be~

Sefiru

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Location: In the walls
  • Posts: 2569
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 891
    • View Profile
Re: Gender-neutral pronouns
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2015, 06:47:22 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;167446
what's the big difference between the "hirs" and "xirs" categories? As well as "ze's"? Like what's the history behind it.


As far as I know (which is from a linguistic standpoint and not a community one) there is no difference in usage between the different sets of gender-neutral pronouns; it's up to personal preference which ones someone chooses to use.

That is, nobody is trying to say that there is, f'ex, one kind of pronoun for transgendered people and another for genderfluid people, or anything like that. At least, that I have heard of.

I'm curious if one pronoun set will ever settle as the standard. English is weird; there's no central grammar institute like in French or German, historical attempts to impose change on the language have largely failed, and its natural evolution is strange and unpredictable.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Me on AO3 & Deviantart

beachglass

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2013
  • Posts: 239
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Gender-neutral pronouns
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2015, 10:05:28 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;175801
I'm curious if one pronoun set will ever settle as the standard. English is weird; there's no central grammar institute like in French or German, historical attempts to impose change on the language have largely failed, and its natural evolution is strange and unpredictable.

If I had to guess, I'd bet on "they" becoming the default for everyone, just because it seems to already be happening that way. But there is precedent for neologisms -- "Ms." is well established.
"The further we go, and older we grow, the more we know, the less we show."  ~ Robert Smith

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Gender-neutral pronouns
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2015, 12:10:00 am »
Quote from: Sefiru;175801
As far as I know (which is from a linguistic standpoint and not a community one) there is no difference in usage between the different sets of gender-neutral pronouns; it's up to personal preference which ones someone chooses to use.

That is, nobody is trying to say that there is, f'ex, one kind of pronoun for transgendered people and another for genderfluid people, or anything like that. At least, that I have heard of.

I'm curious if one pronoun set will ever settle as the standard. English is weird; there's no central grammar institute like in French or German, historical attempts to impose change on the language have largely failed, and its natural evolution is strange and unpredictable.

 
This is my understanding of it, too. We wicked pronoun deviants are just generally just dissatisfied with the binary-gendering grammar for people, "it" is rude, and "they" is usually plural and might suggest that a "proper" person is singularly gendered.

So, we communally spitball, or at least we're in the linguistic spitball stage it seems. Borrow from German or something. Deconstruct and reconstruct the Englishness of pronouns. Zie, ze, xi, ee (I think that last one is metagender, or at least coined by one who identifies as metagender.)

Personally, Tagalog and Bahasa doesn't have this problem and I think the pronouns just sound prettier, but I doubt that would gain as much popularity.
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Sefiru

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Location: In the walls
  • Posts: 2569
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 891
    • View Profile
Re: Gender-neutral pronouns
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2015, 06:30:04 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;175808
If I had to guess, I'd bet on "they" becoming the default for everyone, just because it seems to already be happening that way. But there is precedent for neologisms -- "Ms." is well established.

I also think "they" is the most likely contender, because the same thing has already happened with "you" pushing out "thee" and "thou".

Neologisms, as in new vocabulary, are one thing, but new grammar is another. (And spelling reform has an even worse track record.)

ETA: I'm referring here to people who try to dictate change in language, not change that happens organically.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 06:31:10 pm by Sefiru »
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Me on AO3 & Deviantart

Kylara

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 1433
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 319
    • View Profile
    • https://www.patreon.com/kyndryana
  • Religion: Norse Fusion Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/hers
Re: Gender-neutral pronouns
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2015, 12:03:08 pm »
Quote from: Faemon;175810


Personally, Tagalog and Bahasa doesn't have this problem and I think the pronouns just sound prettier, but I doubt that would gain as much popularity.

 
I had to go look those up...the Tagalog pronouns are lovely!
Check out my Patreon for more writing and other goodies!

HeartShadow

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2195
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
    • http://www.flamekeeping.org
Re: Gender-neutral pronouns
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2015, 03:04:40 pm »
Quote from: Faemon;175810
This is my understanding of it, too. We wicked pronoun deviants are just generally just dissatisfied with the binary-gendering grammar for people, "it" is rude, and "they" is usually plural and might suggest that a "proper" person is singularly gendered.

So, we communally spitball, or at least we're in the linguistic spitball stage it seems. Borrow from German or something. Deconstruct and reconstruct the Englishness of pronouns. Zie, ze, xi, ee (I think that last one is metagender, or at least coined by one who identifies as metagender.)

Personally, Tagalog and Bahasa doesn't have this problem and I think the pronouns just sound prettier, but I doubt that would gain as much popularity.

 
metagender's a new word on me - is there a reputable place for a clear definition, or do you have one?  *would google, but always seems to find the "hey let's be a jackass" options, and ick*

Sefiru

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Location: In the walls
  • Posts: 2569
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 891
    • View Profile
Re: Gender-neutral pronouns
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2015, 05:51:57 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;175853
metagender's a new word on me - is there a reputable place for a clear definition, or do you have one?  *would google, but always seems to find the "hey let's be a jackass" options, and ick*


I did google, and I think I found the person who Faemon mentioned. On the other hand, I also found two other, completely different definitions of "metagender" in the first 2 pages of search results.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Me on AO3 & Deviantart

HeartShadow

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2195
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
    • http://www.flamekeeping.org
Re: Gender-neutral pronouns
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2015, 08:07:18 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;175859
I did google, and I think I found the person who Faemon mentioned. On the other hand, I also found two other, completely different definitions of "metagender" in the first 2 pages of search results.

 
Okay.  in other words, /ask the person that uses it/ definition. :)

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 9909
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 732
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Gender-neutral pronouns
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2015, 06:40:55 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;175859
I did google, and I think I found the person who Faemon mentioned. On the other hand, I also found two other, completely different definitions of "metagender" in the first 2 pages of search results.

 
[gender-and-pronoun neepery]
Lupus was who I thought of first, since e is who I most associate with the term 'metagender', but Faemon mentioned it in context of an 'ee' pronoun, which is a different variation on Spivak than what Lupus uses. (No, I don't have all this stuffed in my head; I clicked the Wikipedia link Lupus provides to refresh my memory about a detail, and found that 'ee' is a thing - or rather, seems to have been a misreading of another suggested pronoun, but I can't tell for sure, because the source is behind a paywall. Whether anyone is using it as their preferred personal pronoun, I have no idea, unless Faemon did run across someone who IDs as metagender and favors the 'anti-Carlton' variant of Spivak.)

I tried that search myself (using DuckDuckGo... and figuring that the appearance of this thread was the place to stop looking at results :)), what I found in the way of clearly different definitions didn't really impress me - one appears to take Lupus's mnemonic quip about metagender ('I never met-a-gender I didn't like,' which e is explicit is not a definition) out of context as an orientational definition; others are... well, very Tumblr, and I doubt they'll get much traction outside that environment.

Some of those other usages looked to me like they could derive from someone encountering Lupus's usage but not understanding it well - eir page on eir blog left me feeling hazy about details, too, until I ran across a comment e made on a post at TWH (I can provide a link if anyone really wants it, but my bookmarks are on the other computer), in which e clarifies, 'Metagender is a gender that is not male or female, nor androgynous, nor lacking gender, nor gender-fluid. It's a fixed and stable gender, but one that is not on the spectrum of the binary. Any third-gender, or sixth-gender, or eighty-seventh gender can potentially identify with being metagender.'

I strongly surmise that the implication it contains, of 'metagender' being a single specific such gender, is unintended, an artifact of the casual, conversational, unpolished nature of blog comments; Lupus is an academic, and surely would have intended the etymological implications of 'meta'+'gender' (so, beyond or alongside [conventional binary] gender). So that quote is probably better understood to mean, 'Metagender is/refers to any gender that fits these parameters' - very much what I use 'nth gender' to mean.

Obviously, I strongly favor Lupus's usage, not so much as The One True Meaning, but as the most-solidly-constructed definition; e also has chronological precedence (one of my search results - a GenderTalk Web Radio episode on which e was featured - indicated that e was using and explaining it publicly as early as 2004); I'd generally consider it the default meaning for anything other than someone using the term as their own identity-word.

When someone is using it as a self-descriptor, Shad's 'ask the person' rule applies, of course.

[/neepery]

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5219
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1123
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Re: Gender-neutral pronouns
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2015, 07:24:02 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;175888
I strongly surmise that the implication it contains, of 'metagender' being a single specific such gender, is unintended, an artifact of the casual, conversational, unpolished nature of blog comments; Lupus is an academic, and surely would have intended the etymological implications of 'meta'+'gender' (so, beyond or alongside [conventional binary] gender). So that quote is probably better understood to mean, 'Metagender is/refers to any gender that fits these parameters' - very much what I use 'nth gender' to mean.

 
Or, to translate it into Cauldron slang, "ubiquitous other". ;)
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Gender-neutral pronouns
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2015, 08:55:42 am »
Quote from: Kylara;175849
I had to go look those up...the Tagalog pronouns are lovely!

 
Aren't they! :D:

Quote from: HeartShadow;175853
metagender's a new word on me - is there a reputable place for a clear definition, or do you have one?

Quote from: Sefiru;175859
I did google, and I think I found the person who Faemon mentioned.  

Quote from: SunflowerP;175888
Obviously, I strongly favor Lupus's usage, not so much as The One True Meaning, but as the most-solidly-constructed definition

...

I'd generally consider it the default meaning for anything other than someone using the term as their own identity-word.

When someone is using it as a self-descriptor, Shad's 'ask the person' rule applies, of course.

 
Yup, that was the one I meant! The Spivak ones.
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

victoreia

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Honolulu, HI
  • Posts: 923
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
  • Religion: disorganized something
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Gender-neutral pronouns
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2015, 02:03:24 am »
Quote from: beachglass;175808
If I had to guess, I'd bet on "they" becoming the default for everyone, just because it seems to already be happening that way. But there is precedent for neologisms -- "Ms." is well established.

 
"Well established", but not necessarily in wide-spread use. I routinely get "Mrs." instead of "Ms."; personally I get a tad offended by the assumption that a woman over a (visual perception of a) certain age has to be married.

(End rant.) Okay, I'll stop going off tangent now.
Do. Or do not. There is no try.  --Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back

We are star stuff. We are the universe, made manifest. --Ambassador Delenn, Babylon 5

Mind how you go. -- Granny Weatherwax

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
81 Replies
11207 Views
Last post August 23, 2013, 08:46:58 pm
by Carla
6 Replies
2506 Views
Last post October 26, 2013, 05:03:47 pm
by Aster Breo
50 Replies
10822 Views
Last post January 06, 2014, 10:46:38 pm
by Sage
0 Replies
2103 Views
Last post January 06, 2014, 10:42:53 am
by RandallS
2 Replies
4471 Views
Last post August 23, 2014, 03:35:39 am
by Sophia C

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 198
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal