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Author Topic: Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess  (Read 2928 times)

Siran

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Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess
« on: November 24, 2014, 03:34:28 pm »
(I hope I'm posting this on the right board. I honestly hope so)

My question, as stated in the title is how much can and/or should one follow UPG. Why?
Yesterday, as I was drifting towards sleep, I started to see an image every time I closed my eyes. It was a lioness face, and then a lion-headed goddess with the sun disk on her head.
I've been working with Djehuty for some months, and I thought about starting to work also with this goddess. The problem is, I'm not sure if I should and, while I have a feeling it was Sekhmet, I'm not completely sure if it was her or Tefnut. How could I find out? How is She?

I'd love some advice and also some ideas for offerings to Her.

Thank you very much.

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Re: Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2014, 04:10:22 pm »
Quote from: Siran;166048
(I hope I'm posting this on the right board. I honestly hope so)

My question, as stated in the title is how much can and/or should one follow UPG. Why?
Yesterday, as I was drifting towards sleep, I started to see an image every time I closed my eyes. It was a lioness face, and then a lion-headed goddess with the sun disk on her head.
I've been working with Djehuty for some months, and I thought about starting to work also with this goddess. The problem is, I'm not sure if I should and, while I have a feeling it was Sekhmet, I'm not completely sure if it was her or Tefnut. How could I find out? How is She?



One thing that might help you here is that I think you're confusing UPG here - or rather, what it means.

What you've had is an experience that might be with a particular deity. That's not UPG.

You having an experience with a deity is very similar to you having an experience, say, chatting to someone in a bookstore. The actual experience isn't UPG or anything - it's just an experience.

Think of an experience like meeting someone in a bookstore and striking up a conversation based on an interest in the same books. You have lots of choices, after that (and so do they.) You might decided to exchange contact info. You might decide you don't want to talk to them again. You might not exchange contact info, but wander into the bookstore at similar times, or when there's a talk by someone you know the person might be interested in.

Initial interactions with deities are often a lot like that - you have some kind of simple contact during a dream or meditation or ritual, and then you get to decide what you do.

You can decide that you don't want to pursue this. (Sometimes - like if you give your contact info to someone, and then decide later you don't want to be in touch - this takes  bit of practical management, but saying "No thank you" works surprisingly well a lot of times.)

You can decide that you want to learn more before you make a decision. Most deities, in my experience, consider this pretty reasonable. (There are exceptions, but...) You might do a ritual or meditation in which you say "I'm interested in learning more about you, please" and seeing what happens. Divination and dreamwork are other tools that may be useful, or talking to people who are familiar with who you think that deity is.

The key with this is not to make any promises - what I usually recommend to students is a short term "I'd like to get to know you" process that you renew as needed until you either want to make a specific commitment or decide something else.

2-3 months is a good starting place, something like "For the next X time, I'll do some meditation to learn more about you/etc." (If you want to do dreamwork, you may wish to set some boundaries, like "Will take steps to focus on dreamwork once a week" so that you don't have complicated dreams before a big day at work or school.) And then follow through with some ways of getting to know the deity.

(If you're sure of a name, research can and probably should be part of that. If you're not sure of a name, but are pretty sure about a culture or pantheon, you can start there.)

Where UPG comes into this is that UPG is information you get from those interactions with that deity that are *not* part of their widely-known mythology/associated symbols/etc.

For example, I've been circling around doing some work with Seshat. Her associations with some things - libraries, measurements, celestial movements of certain kinds - are widely known in the literature.

The fact I have a small citrine bead on my altar from a ritual that introduced me to her is UPG (it's UPG on the part of the person doing the ritual, if I remember right). If Seshat said "Hey, this thing, I want it as an offering" and it wasn't one of the standard sorts of offerings, that'd be UPG.

But meditation? That's a conversation. An interaction. You might get data out of that that is UPG, but that doesn't mean the whole experience is UPG, or that 'is this X deity' is a UPG question.
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Re: Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2014, 04:18:30 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;166050

Oh, then I've gotten the UPG completely wrong. Thanks a lot for clarifyinG :)
I think I'll do as you suggest, and ask for a time to know Her before making any commitments. I see it's very sensible, and tomorrow morning (I'm going to go to sleep right now) I'll start looking into dreamwork.

Thank you very much for taking your time to answer.

PS: Should I change the title?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 07:56:23 pm by SunflowerP »

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Re: Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2014, 07:33:22 pm »
Quote from: Siran;166052
Oh, then I've gotten the UPG completely wrong. Thanks a lot for clarifyinG :)

PS: Should I change the title?

 
Personally, I think the title's fine. You did have doubts/misunderstanding about UPG, and now it's cleared up. :ange:

Although I wonder if it's not strictly that interpretations of a personal experience aren't in any "official" mythology or even that it isn't a popular interpretation. I mean, Loki usually having a scar on his lip when interacting with people in visions or whatever...I'd consider that UPG even though it's a detail that is also in carvings and writings.
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Re: Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2014, 08:11:17 pm »
Quote from: Siran;166052
PS: Should I change the title?

 
Sticking a 'helpful staff person' oar in to say, no, no need. (Also you wouldn't be able to in any case, as editing the subject line of a thread is a staff function - which we don't exercise much; mainly only to make it more specific so it's more likely to get the attention of those who have the specific knowledge to answer a question, which isn't necessary here.)

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Re: Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2014, 12:27:05 am »
Quote from: Faemon;166060
Although I wonder if it's not strictly that interpretations of a personal experience aren't in any "official" mythology or even that it isn't a popular interpretation. I mean, Loki usually having a scar on his lip when interacting with people in visions or whatever...I'd consider that UPG even though it's a detail that is also in carvings and writings.

Man, if things that are in the lore are also UPG, what isn't?
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Re: Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2014, 01:26:06 am »
Quote from: Jack;166077
Man, if things that are in the lore are also UPG, what isn't?

I wanted to say "the lore itself" as I mentioned the actual numinous experience, even if it's reflecting the lore, would be UPG (even if the experience itself isn't necessarily UPG, if it's lacking in interpretation.)

But... well, then I wondered, how'd that lore get rolling in the first place? And between an immediate experience and an interpretation of it is such a blurry line that I can't even conceive of separate centers between the concept of experience and interpretation.

So then maybe nothing isn't UPG.

(i.e., don't mind me, am just having an epistemological breakdown...)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 01:27:57 am by Faemon »
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Re: Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2014, 01:42:49 am »
Quote from: Faemon;166060
Although I wonder if it's not strictly that interpretations of a personal experience aren't in any "official" mythology or even that it isn't a popular interpretation. I mean, Loki usually having a scar on his lip when interacting with people in visions or whatever...I'd consider that UPG even though it's a detail that is also in carvings and writings.

 
Hmm, no; it'd be part of a personal gnosis, but it's not unverified/unverifiable. I think there's something to be said for including VPG/SVPG (verified personal gnosis, or subsequently-verified personal gnosis) in our terminology, along with UPG and SPG (for those who don't know, that's 'shared personal gnosis': when multiple people have a similar UPG, that isn't verifiable in recorded myth/literature).

UPG was originally coined right here on TC, many years ago, and was intended to be purely a way of identifying one's source - it wasn't meant to disparage personal gnosis. Expanding the terminology to include VPG seems to me like a good way to counteract the trend towards using 'UPG' as an insult.

And just to make this more complete, a note about what UPG means: IMO, to be UPG, a datum/insight needs to be unverified (I prefer 'unverified' to 'unverifiable', because, as this convo shows, sometimes they can be verified), it needs to be personal (that is, it doesn't apply beyond the person/people who experienced the UPG/SPG except and unless others choose to adopt it), and it needs to be gnosis. That last bit is harder to pin down in words, but as Jenett notes, not all experiences of the numinous are gnosis; sometimes they're just experiences.

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Re: Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2014, 01:55:28 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;166087
UPG was originally coined right here on TC, many years ago, and was intended to be purely a way of identifying one's source - it wasn't meant to disparage personal gnosis. And just to make this more complete, a note about what UPG means: IMO, to be UPG, a datum/insight needs to be unverified (I prefer 'unverified' to 'unverifiable', because, as this convo shows, sometimes they can be verified), it needs to be personal (that is, it doesn't apply beyond the person/people who experienced the UPG/SPG except and unless others choose to adopt it), and it needs to be gnosis. That last bit is harder to pin down in words, but as Jenett notes, not all experiences of the numinous are gnosis; sometimes they're just experiences.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SunflowerP again.

Thanks for clearing all this up, anyway. I guess I forgot that the U in the acronym stands for something, and was just dealing with the concept of personal gnosis... gnosis, I guess, in this context could mean an interpretation of an experience, that's intuited rather than structured through a logical proof?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 01:55:51 am by Faemon »
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Re: Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2014, 02:40:46 am »
Quote from: Faemon;166090
Thanks for clearing all this up, anyway. I guess I forgot that the U in the acronym stands for something, and was just dealing with the concept of personal gnosis... gnosis, I guess, in this context could mean an interpretation of an experience, that's intuited rather than structured through a logical proof?

 
Hmm. I think that's a factor (another application of UPG, when we were first using it, was to the intuition-like insights of how to interpret lore, of people well-versed in said lore), though it's not quite the thing I can't put into words. My thing has something to do with whether the bit-of-info is significant enough to count as gnosis, aka 'revealed knowledge', or if it's just a bit of info, that might be extremely useful but isn't momentous.  Though 'momentous' might be a bit too strong of a word - I'm comfy with applying 'UPG' in the case of, 'My UPG is that Hermes particularly likes Green & Black's Maya Gold chocolate,' which is not exactly a world-shaking epiphany.

(Siran - please do continue talking about your lion-headed goddess experiences, if you care to do so; this discussion about UPG and its cousins doesn't have to override your purposes for the thread.)

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Re: Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2014, 08:44:06 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;166095
My thing has something to do with whether the bit-of-info is significant enough to count as gnosis, aka 'revealed knowledge', or if it's just a bit of info, that might be extremely useful but isn't momentous.

 
For me, one of the things that makes it UPG, rather than simply data is that it's something that you *do* something with that is notably different than it would have been for that deity's original culture. It's not purely an intellectual exercise or random fact.

So, for example, Hermes likes Maya Gold chocolate is something that *has* to be modern (chocolate in general being a more modern than than the Hellenic era, and that form decidedly more so!). But it's also a thing that actually affects what you're doing - making one offering instead of another, it's not just "Oh, Jenett likes makes things made out of cobalt blue glass" if you never intend to give me a present or see me in person (irrelevant data)
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Re: Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2014, 12:42:50 am »
Quote from: Jenett;166100
For me, one of the things that makes it UPG, rather than simply data is that it's something that you *do* something with that is notably different than it would have been for that deity's original culture. It's not purely an intellectual exercise or random fact.

So, for example, Hermes likes Maya Gold chocolate is something that *has* to be modern (chocolate in general being a more modern than than the Hellenic era, and that form decidedly more so!). But it's also a thing that actually affects what you're doing - making one offering instead of another, it's not just "Oh, Jenett likes makes things made out of cobalt blue glass" if you never intend to give me a present or see me in person (irrelevant data)

 
Yes. I don't, myself, think it necessarily has to be 'notably different' per se; it's enough that it's something that isn't present in the literature, archaeological record, etc. How much 'lack of presence' might vary - f'ex, for the 'scholarly UPG' I mentioned above, intuition-like insights about interpretation, the thing might be something that is implied when several different bits from the literature are read comparatively, but not implied by any one of those bits alone. Or, I consider my 'cognate-kin' framing of the relationship between deities whose names are closely linguistically related (Manawyddan/Manannan, Odin/Woden/Wotan, etc) to count as UPG-based (in part because I arrived at it via direct interaction with deities who had cognate-kin, and asking them about it).

Or, for another example, there's quite a body of SPG about the Morrigan, most of which is fairly readily reconcilable with the literature, but isn't in the literature.

That's a lot of attention paid to what's really a very small quibble (with the words 'notably different'), but it seems quite likely that the best way to express this, if I'm at a loss for direct definition, is by giving examples. Aside from that small quibble, I'm completely in agreement.

When I consult OneLook, I see that its quick definition is 'intuitive knowledge of spiritual truths' - not necessarily capital-T cosmic Truths, but truth of a different sort than just fact. That, I think, is a key part of what I'm waving a hand at, as well as the 'actually affects what you're doing' part.

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Re: Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2014, 06:29:18 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;166062
Sticking a 'helpful staff person' oar in to say, no, no need. (Also you wouldn't be able to in any case, as editing the subject line of a thread is a staff function - which we don't exercise much; mainly only to make it more specific so it's more likely to get the attention of those who have the specific knowledge to answer a question, which isn't necessary here.)

Sunflower


Thanks for clarifying
 
Quote from: SunflowerP;166095
[...]

(Siran - please do continue talking about your lion-headed goddess experiences, if you care to do so; this discussion about UPG and its cousins doesn't have to override your purposes for the thread.)

Sunflower


I'm actually enjoying the UPG discussion. It clarifies and explains quite a good deal of thinks I'd been getting wrong xD
 
Well, I can't say much that is really interesting. I had a dream some days ago (after the post) in which I was offered a cat via phone messaging and, during my prayer times, I've adressed Sekhmet a few times. She sure seems nice, but can change mood in a second. After she had a promise from me that I would answer her this Sunday she calmed down, and today (a day before) I decided I would start working with her too.
So today I gave her offerings for the first time (at the same time and the same Shrine I use for Djehuty, he said he didn't mind as long as I couldn't make another) and tomorrow I will offer her my hematite necklace, just as I've offered my Ankh to Djehuty (and offered the hematite until I could buy one).

Also, I'd been thinking about offering her my exercise, just as I offer him my mental work. Is this a good idea?

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Re: Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2014, 02:09:39 pm »
Quote from: Siran;166410
...

Also, I'd been thinking about offering her my exercise, just as I offer him my mental work. Is this a good idea?

 
I think it is, based on my own experiences with Sekhmet, and her health aspects.  My job used to be in service to her (managing clinical trials and overseeing patient safety), and I know multiple people who do blood donations and/or hospital volunteering in her Name.
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Re: Doubts with UPG and a lion-headed goddess
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2014, 12:27:56 am »
Quote from: Jenett;166050
One thing that might help you here is that I think you're confusing UPG here - or rather, what it means.

What you've had is an experience that might be with a particular deity. That's not UPG.

You having an experience with a deity is very similar to you having an experience, say, chatting to someone in a bookstore. The actual experience isn't UPG or anything - it's just an experience.



I guess I've been defining UPG wrong as well, focusing more on the "unverified" bit. Which would mean, for me, that any insight or interaction with a deity that cannot be confirmed by another party would be UPG.
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