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Author Topic: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question  (Read 9973 times)

LostEnvoy

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Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« on: November 20, 2014, 10:51:21 pm »
So I've been doing some research and I've run into a few common themes, one being some irritation toward eclectic practitioners coming from reconstructionists. Is this a common thing? Where does it stem from? As someone new to this I'm a little confused about why there would be a problem with eclectics and recon folks, except maybe with cultural appropriation?

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2014, 01:32:37 am »
Quote from: LostEnvoy;165825
So I've been doing some research and I've run into a few common themes, one being some irritation toward eclectic practitioners coming from reconstructionists. Is this a common thing? Where does it stem from? As someone new to this I'm a little confused about why there would be a problem with eclectics and recon folks, except maybe with cultural appropriation?

 
Well, the only answer I can give you is that many eclectics tend to cherrypick gods and goddesses and practices from cultures that recons try to...recon. And reconstructionists find it pretty disrespectful.

IMO, it's one of those things where you have to choose what you take carefully. I'm somewhat eclectic myself. The thing about eclectics and their practice is that often stuff gets picked without research behind it, and a lot of the time, UPG gets cited as something infallible. That's not to say that UPG is wrong, but the lore, at least when starting out, is a valuable resource.

Being eclectic is a lot of work, and some people take it as an excuse to be flufftrogs (ie willfully ignorant) and excuse everything with "But I'm eclectic so it doesn't matter!"

It gets to the point where I've observed recons have a knee-jerk kind of reaction to eclectics. Some recons aren't like this. But yeah, a lot are.

While not necessarily a reconstructionist myself, I find I have a lot of irritation at people equating Cernunnos with the Horned God, because it spreads misinformation about Cernunnos Himself and effectively obliterates what little lore we have of Him; I also view it as rude. Examples like this are probably why recons get p-o'd at eclectics because this is their experience.

Not sayin' it's right. Just trying to shed a light on why.
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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2014, 05:14:20 pm »
Quote from: LostEnvoy;165825
So I've been doing some research and I've run into a few common themes, one being some irritation toward eclectic practitioners coming from reconstructionists. Is this a common thing? Where does it stem from? As someone new to this I'm a little confused about why there would be a problem with eclectics and recon folks, except maybe with cultural appropriation?

 
As a reconstructionist I should perhaps comment. HarpingHawk basically has it right. The problem is not with eclecticism per se. Mixing pantheons was historically common. It is possible to worship a set of personal deities, while also worshipping community deities. Or to worship two groups of local deities. Or to worship deities from a variety of pantheons who are linked conceptually or otherwise relatable. The problem is with lazy eclecticism.

First of all this is offensive to deities. Forming a relationship with a deity comes with a responsibility to their teachings or expectations. Ignoring these is insulting, and using a god like this in worship is exploiting their image and presence like they are some kind of fashion accessory. In addition it spreads misinformation about the gods.

Not to mention problems with value systems, which are difficult to understand without having a close look at the gods and the societies they were linked to. This can be especially problematic when dealing with concepts that are superficially similar to modern concepts, but are actually quite different and follow very different logic. Failure to understand this has ramifications both for how a culture is perceived, as well as the practical problem of making the appropriate adjustments for modern usage.

To be honest though, don't think I have seen anyone on The Cauldron do this, so I wonder how common it actually is, or if that type of approach (the lazy approach) has any real retention.

Ebraucus

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2014, 04:35:01 am »
Quote from: Yei;165863
To be honest though, don't think I have seen anyone on The Cauldron do this, so I wonder how common it actually is, or if that type of approach (the lazy approach) has any real retention.


It strikes me as something that comes out of the 'Teen Wicca' thing - you're presented with a plethora of Deities, practices, philosophies, the lot, and all wrapped in the banner of Paganism. The distinction isn't really made between the different branches, especially if they're using the Jung-style archetypes of Goddess and Horned God, so I can see very easily how someone could claim to be working with a set of Deities divorced entirely from their cultural and spiritual connections. I did once know a girl who claimed to revere Isis and Woden as Goddess and God, simply because she found them the coolest. Is that a bad thing? Not inherently, though as you say, it is lazy and can stick with those of us who do put in the work and find our faith through study. It did stick for me, certainly.

That said, I think it's one of those things that settles down with time. The wonderful thing about teen Wiccans is that they tend to grow into young adult Wiccans, and in time, put in the research, understand more about the nature of the various Pagan faiths and their own personal theology, and tend to stick with something with more of a cultural backing. I think it's really just a matter of reading, research, and genuine spiritual thought, rather than just picking up your nearest Llewellyn.

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2014, 04:44:11 am »
Quote from: Ebraucus;165876
That said, I think it's one of those things that settles down with time. The wonderful thing about teen Wiccans is that they tend to grow into young adult Wiccans, and in time, put in the research, understand more about the nature of the various Pagan faiths and their own personal theology, and tend to stick with something with more of a cultural backing. I think it's really just a matter of reading, research, and genuine spiritual thought, rather than just picking up your nearest Llewellyn.

That is both ageist and remarkably optimistic. I've known plenty of adults into their 50s and 60s that constantly amazed me with their shallow eclecticism, and teens who are doing work that inspires me.
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Ebraucus

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2014, 05:38:14 am »
Quote from: Jack;165877
That is both ageist and remarkably optimistic. I've known plenty of adults into their 50s and 60s that constantly amazed me with their shallow eclecticism, and teens who are doing work that inspires me.

Granted - apologies if I've made offense, it certainly wasn't my intention.

I think the approach I'm referring to isn't necessarily linked with being in the second decade of life - it's more the 'out of the box' Paganism that will be for a lot of newcomers their first steps into a faith other than the big three. Perhaps the difference is that some will very quickly look at alternative sources, read around the topic, and some will not, and of course people come into Paganism at all stages of life. I'd go back and edit my first post to better reflect that, if I could.

I still stand by the main thrust of the argument though - eclecticism is often the first Pagan path new folks will come across - if you're not lucky enough to have a good dedicated Pagan bookshop locally, most bookshops are likely to sell one, maybe two books, maybe by Ravenwolf, rolled into Self-Help or New Age sections. Can we really blame people for mashing up pantheons and practices if they simply don't have the resources or don't know where to look? It might not be what we as Recons would particularly like, but it's the truth of the matter. Very few of us, I imagine, can claim to have moved straight from our birth faith into our current recon faiths.

As for being optimistic, well - I try to be a glass half full sort of guy.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 05:40:17 am by Ebraucus »

BeardedBoggan

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2014, 11:39:14 am »
Quote from: Yei;165863
As a reconstructionist I should perhaps comment. HarpingHawk basically has it right. The problem is not with eclecticism per se. Mixing pantheons was historically common. It is possible to worship a set of personal deities, while also worshipping community deities. Or to worship two groups of local deities. Or to worship deities from a variety of pantheons who are linked conceptually or otherwise relatable. The problem is with lazy eclecticism.

First of all this is offensive to deities. Forming a relationship with a deity comes with a responsibility to their teachings or expectations. Ignoring these is insulting, and using a god like this in worship is exploiting their image and presence like they are some kind of fashion accessory. In addition it spreads misinformation about the gods.

Not to mention problems with value systems, which are difficult to understand without having a close look at the gods and the societies they were linked to. This can be especially problematic when dealing with concepts that are superficially similar to modern concepts, but are actually quite different and follow very different logic. Failure to understand this has ramifications both for how a culture is perceived, as well as the practical problem of making the appropriate adjustments for modern usage.

To be honest though, don't think I have seen anyone on The Cauldron do this, so I wonder how common it actually is, or if that type of approach (the lazy approach) has any real retention.

 
Very well said.  The mixing of pantheons was historically common and it is noticeable in the reconstruction movements as well.  Some of the Celtic Reconstructionists I speak with that follow more of a Scottish path willingly work with the Norse deities as well since the Norse had a strong influence, both culturally and religiously, in Scotland over the centuries.  It does happen and I think that, when done respectfully, it can be done properly as to not offend the gods and give them the respect (within their own context and without cultural appropriation) they deserve.

I speak as someone who started out as a Teen Wiccan (tm) and grew beyond it.  Wicca works for some people and that's just fine (standard disclaimer here).  For myself, as I did my own research and went into the academic field as an educator, I learned the value of doing my own studies and not relying upon UPG for every little thing.  Eventually, I began to identify as a Celtic Reconstructionist and went about following the Celtic deities as has been set down in the past and with what has been reconstructed as well as pieced together by my own spiritual and academic studies.  CR tries to balance the spiritual with the academic, as do many of the recon paths.  

So, pardon my long-winded reply that might seem a little jumbled... but in my experience, a lot of reconstructionists do have that knee-jerking reaction to non-recon practices but it comes down to the individual really.  I think all faiths and approaches are incredibly personal and valid and try to be respectful about it; who am I to tell someone else what to believe?  Those who are rude and dismissive of others are acting against their own rules (at least in CR) of hospitality and gentleness.  People can judgmental and quick to do so, regardless of spiritual faith or cultural path.

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2014, 02:23:57 pm »
Quote from: LostEnvoy;165825
So I've been doing some research and I've run into a few common themes, one being some irritation toward eclectic practitioners coming from reconstructionists. Is this a common thing? Where does it stem from? As someone new to this I'm a little confused about why there would be a problem with eclectics and recon folks, except maybe with cultural appropriation?

 
To add to what others have said, it's also because reconstructionism developed largely in reaction to poor scholarship among pagans.

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2014, 02:39:29 pm »
Quote from: LostEnvoy;165825
As someone new to this I'm a little confused about why there would be a problem with eclectics and recon folks, except maybe with cultural appropriation?

 
Bad eclecticism frequently produces vague, incoherent, and superficial results.

Bad reconstructionism frequently produces doctrinaire adherence to a very narrowly defined set of practices which can be justified through specific research.

Placing these two in immediate proximity produces outbursts of amazing drama.

Less poorly assembled formulations may or may not retain the explosive properties of the degenerate case, depending on their specific composition.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

HarpingHawke

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2014, 03:52:22 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;165886
Bad eclecticism frequently produces vague, incoherent, and superficial results.

Bad reconstructionism frequently produces doctrinaire adherence to a very narrowly defined set of practices which can be justified through specific research.

Placing these two in immediate proximity produces outbursts of amazing drama.

Less poorly assembled formulations may or may not retain the explosive properties of the degenerate case, depending on their specific composition.

 
And here we see Darkhawk putting this in incredibly easy-to-understand terms. Thank you.
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Sage

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2014, 04:05:31 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;165886
Bad eclecticism frequently produces vague, incoherent, and superficial results.

Bad reconstructionism frequently produces doctrinaire adherence to a very narrowly defined set of practices which can be justified through specific research.

Placing these two in immediate proximity produces outbursts of amazing drama.

Less poorly assembled formulations may or may not retain the explosive properties of the degenerate case, depending on their specific composition.

 
Quoting Kiya but really just tossing this out there for anyone to tackle and for my own reassurance:

I feel pretty mired in the eclecticism vs. reconstructionism debate and can't see the forest for the trees in my immediate vicinity. Many times it feels like eclectic and recon are the only options in modern Paganism and/or polytheist circles, at best perhaps a sliding scale and almost always framed in terms of an oppositional binary. You can be a Pagan or polytheist without having to pick one or the other, yes? Because I don't feel that either term is all that applicable to my life but so often the arguments seem to boil down Greater Pagandom into one or the other.
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I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2014, 04:23:45 pm »
Quote from: Sage;165895
Quoting Kiya but really just tossing this out there for anyone to tackle and for my own reassurance:

I feel pretty mired in the eclecticism vs. reconstructionism debate and can't see the forest for the trees in my immediate vicinity. Many times it feels like eclectic and recon are the only options in modern Paganism and/or polytheist circles, at best perhaps a sliding scale and almost always framed in terms of an oppositional binary. You can be a Pagan or polytheist without having to pick one or the other, yes? Because I don't feel that either term is all that applicable to my life but so often the arguments seem to boil down Greater Pagandom into one or the other.

 
This is where I'm at. I sort of see it as letting the spiritual approach me on its own terms instead of approaching it as an eclectic or recon.
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BeardedBoggan

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2014, 04:40:53 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;165886
Bad eclecticism frequently produces vague, incoherent, and superficial results.

Bad reconstructionism frequently produces doctrinaire adherence to a very narrowly defined set of practices which can be justified through specific research.

Placing these two in immediate proximity produces outbursts of amazing drama.

Less poorly assembled formulations may or may not retain the explosive properties of the degenerate case, depending on their specific composition.

 
This reminds me of when I was first telling my wife about being interested in CR and what was considered valid and not a good source and her furrowing her brow and saying, "Sounds like Orthodoxy!"

It was said in good humor of course.

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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2014, 04:44:57 pm »
Quote from: Sage;165895
Quoting Kiya but really just tossing this out there for anyone to tackle and for my own reassurance:

I feel pretty mired in the eclecticism vs. reconstructionism debate and can't see the forest for the trees in my immediate vicinity. Many times it feels like eclectic and recon are the only options in modern Paganism and/or polytheist circles, at best perhaps a sliding scale and almost always framed in terms of an oppositional binary. You can be a Pagan or polytheist without having to pick one or the other, yes? Because I don't feel that either term is all that applicable to my life but so often the arguments seem to boil down Greater Pagandom into one or the other.

(bolding mine)

So we're talking maybe...pliable paganism? Could it also technically be paired with squishy polytheism?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 04:45:31 pm by HarpingHawke »
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Re: Eclectic Paganism and Recon Question
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2014, 05:19:41 pm »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;165903
(bolding mine)

So we're talking maybe...pliable paganism? Could it also technically be paired with squishy polytheism?

 
I'm talking less about an approach to understanding who and what the gods are and more of how a religion is identified or talked about. I don't, for example, see my work with Clann Bhride in terms of eclecticism or reconstructionism, and such terms aren't really so helpful when looking at new Pagan religions - like the Otherfaith that Aine Llewellyn and others are building - which have nothing to reconstruct or to be eclectic about because they're new.
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I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

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