Author Topic: Other: How queer is queer? (Read 2587 times)

Faemon · « **on:** October 29, 2014, 05:08:15 pm »

So, I've come to identify as queer, which, I've gathered should be enough. Like, each individual if they come to whatever identification on their life journey, should be honored and respected and believed, right? Great. Yay.

But... I wondered if I shouldn't collect more ideas about this to better understand my queerness?

My possible misunderstandings of which lie ahead.

Gender and sexuality are two completely different things, that can combine in various ways. I've gathered as much, still, part of me wonders what even is that and what else?

Is genderqueer-ness a relationship to one's body? I've never had body dysmorphia, never had the striae terminalis of my brain measured and calculated for its proportion to whatever would determine my identified gender, and I don't even think about my chromosomal/hormonal state... although my mother and her partner used to be great fans of Barbara and Allan Pease and they sort of used those gender science tests to explain why I had crushes on girls and didn't emote and had spatial reasoning: my male self isn't dead, he's sleeping. (Explaining that up next.) Now I'm of the opinion that this is more of a social issue than one of material science or statistics, and that the explanation that the three of us excitedly accepted about how I worked--was no explanation at all.

So, I would usually go that at some point a human experience should not be pathologized or politicized but I guess that's what I'm trying to do here? I don't know.

Is it a relationship to cultural expectations? My mother used to tell me that she'd expected me to be born male, and had a boy's name picked out and everything. My thoughts would tend to go back to that when she (being a single mother of two due to a complicated history of personal conduct) would express just sheer vitriol against men, because then I would wonder, "If I had been born a boy, would I be such a different person?" And I'd decided that, actually, I wouldn't be...except that maybe my feelings would be much, much, much more deeply hurt if my own mother should go on about how I would be fated to be sex-obsessed and callous and all that bad stuff just because I would be male. I was to young to realize that I would be forbidden from sewing or knitting or maybe even cooking (all activities that I enjoy), or that I wouldn't be allowed to cry (which I eventually came around to forcing myself not to do, for other reasons), maybe pressures on sexuality or physicality would be different... Lately, I spent some time with the very traditional extended family, whose house rules tended to have many more restrictions based on gender than I was used to. So, I wondered if it was being a high polarity cisgendered sissy girl that wasn't for me, or if it was being treated as one that wasn't for me. But being one would be fine.

When I do cross-dress, I'm still in the space of, "Is this what a guy would do?" Or, my alter-ego alternate-universe male-self would do, and not yet at the sort of gendering attitude of, "I am totally a guy, therefore anything and everything I do is what 'a guy' would do."

And when I'm alone, without expectations, I feel agendered. When it comes to what I'm comfortable expressing, I guess that I tend to oscillate.

So--those are some of my influencing experiences, and questions. Thank you for reading! Please do feel free to just throw anything at this from your own experience and interpretations.

PrincessKLS · « **Reply #1 on:** October 29, 2014, 08:05:31 pm »

Quote from: Faemon;163811

So, I've come to identify as queer, which, I've gathered should be enough. Like, each individual if they come to whatever identification on their life journey, should be honored and respected and believed, right? Great. Yay.

But... I wondered if I shouldn't collect more ideas about this to better understand my queerness?

My possible misunderstandings of which lie ahead.

Gender and sexuality are two completely different things, that can combine in various ways. I've gathered as much, still, part of me wonders what even is that and what else?

Is genderqueer-ness a relationship to one's body? I've never had body dysmorphia, never had the striae terminalis of my brain measured and calculated for its proportion to whatever would determine my identified gender, and I don't even think about my chromosomal/hormonal state... although my mother and her partner used to be great fans of Barbara and Allan Pease and they sort of used those gender science tests to explain why I had crushes on girls and didn't emote and had spatial reasoning: my male self isn't dead, he's sleeping. (Explaining that up next.) Now I'm of the opinion that this is more of a social issue than one of material science or statistics, and that the explanation that the three of us excitedly accepted about how I worked--was no explanation at all.

So, I would usually go that at some point a human experience should not be pathologized or politicized but I guess that's what I'm trying to do here? I don't know.

Is it a relationship to cultural expectations? My mother used to tell me that she'd expected me to be born male, and had a boy's name picked out and everything. My thoughts would tend to go back to that when she (being a single mother of two due to a complicated history of personal conduct) would express just sheer vitriol against men, because then I would wonder, "If I had been born a boy, would I be such a different person?" And I'd decided that, actually, I wouldn't be...except that maybe my feelings would be much, much, much more deeply hurt if my own mother should go on about how I would be fated to be sex-obsessed and callous and all that bad stuff just because I would be male. I was to young to realize that I would be forbidden from sewing or knitting or maybe even cooking (all activities that I enjoy), or that I wouldn't be allowed to cry (which I eventually came around to forcing myself not to do, for other reasons), maybe pressures on sexuality or physicality would be different... Lately, I spent some time with the very traditional extended family, whose house rules tended to have many more restrictions based on gender than I was used to. So, I wondered if it was being a high polarity cisgendered sissy girl that wasn't for me, or if it was being treated as one that wasn't for me. But being one would be fine.

When I do cross-dress, I'm still in the space of, "Is this what a guy would do?" Or, my alter-ego alternate-universe male-self would do, and not yet at the sort of gendering attitude of, "I am totally a guy, therefore anything and everything I do is what 'a guy' would do."

And when I'm alone, without expectations, I feel agendered. When it comes to what I'm comfortable expressing, I guess that I tend to oscillate.

So--those are some of my influencing experiences, and questions. Thank you for reading! Please do feel free to just throw anything at this from your own experience and interpretations.

To my knowledge genderqueer is a gender identity that' basically the idea of being bigendered or genderfluid where you can express both gender ideologies. I've even heard of pan or trigendered as well. So perhaps people can have 3 or 4 seperate gender identities within them. Not just the binary ones.

Queer to my knowledge can be both gender expression and sexual identity. To my knowledge it's sort of like pansexuality and pangenderism in which you can be a combination of identities at once.

Sobekemiti · « **Reply #2 on:** October 29, 2014, 10:34:41 pm »

Quote from: Faemon;163811

My possible misunderstandings of which lie ahead.

Gender and sexuality are two completely different things, that can combine in various ways. I've gathered as much, still, part of me wonders what even is that and what else?

Is genderqueer-ness a relationship to one's body?

Is it a relationship to cultural expectations?

I feel like gender identity, of any flavour, always has a relationship to your body. Some are stronger or more important/significant than others, but it's still there. My genderqueerness is still affected by it, even if I don't get body dysphoria, and generally ignore what it does. I mean, it would be nice if it didn't bleed once a month, and I think I'd rather have a flat chest, but it doesn't really bother me to the point of distress, so I just live with it. Maybe one day I'll transition, if I feel it's a step I need to take, but yeah, it's just not a priority at the moment. Right now, I can live with it, and be happy enough.

I'm sadly not one of those people who naturally looks androgynous, so going out into the world will usually have me addressed/perceived as a woman. And that's another layer of 'dealing with the body' that I have to deal with. Most of the time, I don't mind, because it's easier than trying to convince everyone I'm queer, and to respect that, particularly when I'm job hunting at the moment. It's just easier to let them see me as female, and ignore it. I know what I am, I don't need their external validation. I do my job and go home.

I mean, my mother deliberately gave me a gender-neutral upbringing, so I was never really confined to those heavily gendered things. I did whatever I liked, and could obsess about dinosaurs, play with my brother's car set, and build fairy gardens with my friends in the same day. I told her I didn't want to wear dresses when I was 8, and she was fine with that.

There are always going to be cultural/social expectations on anyone, regardless of their queerness, because that's how they work. If I'm seen as female, and it comes up in conversation that I'm 30 and single, well, there will be questions about partnering up and having kids, because that's the expectation, particularly since my younger brother and his wife have two kids already. But it's weird to be happily single and not interested in relationships or kids, whether I ID as female or genderqueer.

I don't know if any of this really helps with your questions, and I feel like each could potentially be a book all of their own, particularly by someone better versed in queer theory than I am, but maybe it helps? I certainly did a lot of writing about gender and deconstructing it as I came to terms with my genderqueerness. It took me a few years to feel comfortable where I am now, and maybe that'll be the same for you. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk. I might not have all the answers, but I'm very good at listening.

PrincessKLS · « **Reply #3 on:** October 30, 2014, 04:09:54 pm »

Quote from: PrincessKLS;163819

To my knowledge genderqueer is a gender identity that' basically the idea of being bigendered or genderfluid where you can express both gender ideologies. I've even heard of pan or trigendered as well. So perhaps people can have 3 or 4 seperate gender identities within them. Not just the binary ones.

Queer to my knowledge can be both gender expression and sexual identity. To my knowledge it's sort of like pansexuality and pangenderism in which you can be a combination of identities at once.

Oh also, I am not trying to be very graphic here, but I've looked into the BDSM world that also has a sub-genre of "forced feminization" and "sissification" as it's called. I'm kind of curious about queer and trans peoples ideas or feelings toward this culture, as it essentially fetishizes transgenderism and even goes to the point of negating negativity ideologies toward feminity? Personally I'm all for adults expressing their sexuality the best way for them but I do wonder about this particular fetish culture however since it could target the trans community. Also I've noticed that in most of the "forced feminization" depictions in porn and literate seems to be between persumably heterosexual couples who just turn the sexual gender roles around in bed.

Sarah · « **Reply #4 on:** October 30, 2014, 04:33:26 pm »

Quote from: Faemon;163811

So, I've come to identify as queer, which, I've gathered should be enough. Like, each individual if they come to whatever identification on their life journey, should be honored and respected and believed, right? Great. Yay.

But... I wondered if I shouldn't collect more ideas about this to better understand my queerness?

My possible misunderstandings of which lie ahead.

Gender and sexuality are two completely different things, that can combine in various ways. I've gathered as much, still, part of me wonders what even is that and what else?

Is genderqueer-ness a relationship to one's body? I've never had body dysmorphia, never had the striae terminalis of my brain measured and calculated for its proportion to whatever would determine my identified gender, and I don't even think about my chromosomal/hormonal state... although my mother and her partner used to be great fans of Barbara and Allan Pease and they sort of used those gender science tests to explain why I had crushes on girls and didn't emote and had spatial reasoning: my male self isn't dead, he's sleeping. (Explaining that up next.) Now I'm of the opinion that this is more of a social issue than one of material science or statistics, and that the explanation that the three of us excitedly accepted about how I worked--was no explanation at all.

So, I would usually go that at some point a human experience should not be pathologized or politicized but I guess that's what I'm trying to do here? I don't know.

Is it a relationship to cultural expectations? My mother used to tell me that she'd expected me to be born male, and had a boy's name picked out and everything. My thoughts would tend to go back to that when she (being a single mother of two due to a complicated history of personal conduct) would express just sheer vitriol against men, because then I would wonder, "If I had been born a boy, would I be such a different person?" And I'd decided that, actually, I wouldn't be...except that maybe my feelings would be much, much, much more deeply hurt if my own mother should go on about how I would be fated to be sex-obsessed and callous and all that bad stuff just because I would be male. I was to young to realize that I would be forbidden from sewing or knitting or maybe even cooking (all activities that I enjoy), or that I wouldn't be allowed to cry (which I eventually came around to forcing myself not to do, for other reasons), maybe pressures on sexuality or physicality would be different... Lately, I spent some time with the very traditional extended family, whose house rules tended to have many more restrictions based on gender than I was used to. So, I wondered if it was being a high polarity cisgendered sissy girl that wasn't for me, or if it was being treated as one that wasn't for me. But being one would be fine.

When I do cross-dress, I'm still in the space of, "Is this what a guy would do?" Or, my alter-ego alternate-universe male-self would do, and not yet at the sort of gendering attitude of, "I am totally a guy, therefore anything and everything I do is what 'a guy' would do."

And when I'm alone, without expectations, I feel agendered. When it comes to what I'm comfortable expressing, I guess that I tend to oscillate.

So--those are some of my influencing experiences, and questions. Thank you for reading! Please do feel free to just throw anything at this from your own experience and interpretations.

hey, I want you to know I am going to reply to this but it might take me a couple of days to get my thoughts together

SunflowerP · « **Reply #5 on:** October 30, 2014, 04:57:50 pm »

Quote from: Faemon;163811

So--those are some of my influencing experiences, and questions. Thank you for reading! Please do feel free to just throw anything at this from your own experience and interpretations.

Like Jake, I have a response to this, but it'll likely take me a day or two to pull it together.

Sunflower

Valentine · « **Reply #6 on:** October 30, 2014, 10:37:45 pm »

Quote from: PrincessKLS;163886

Oh also, I am not trying to be very graphic here, but I've looked into the BDSM world that also has a sub-genre of "forced feminization" and "sissification" as it's called.

As with a lot of other forced/nonconsensual tropes in porn, I think a lot of the time it's about people processing desires that they're frightened of taking responsibility for or seeking out, and very little to do with a desire for actually-nonconsensual real-life situations. If you feel ashamed of wanting something, it makes sense to get at it through fantasizing about someone forcing you to do it--they made the choice, they're responsible, they're the wicked transgressive one, not you--and then discovering, now that it's out of your control, that you like it. That kind of dynamic gets particularly potent in questions of gender and gender expression, where many people have deep-seated shame and are well-aware that the real-world consequences for making socially-unapproved choices can be severe or even lethal. So it makes sense that this is a thing that gets into people's erotic wiring--it's a live wire to begin with.

Unfortunately, of course, because it exists in this society, and because it's wrapped up in all of that shame stuff, that genre tends to also include a lot of stuff about femininity/womanhood/girlhood being weak, humiliating, degrading, disgusting, etc., and to reinforce transphobic attitudes by expressing the "forced" aspect as, "I didn't want this, I'm not one of those sick weird people who do want this, they're disgusting but someone made me do it." (And, of course, there's overlap with eroticization of humiliation/shame generally, and eroticization of submission generally, and all of these things are in the stewpot.) A lot of it gets wrapped up in what amounts to actually rigid gender roles, too: "You're not doing being a man right, so you must be a woman instead, and what a woman wants is to be treated like this." So...yeah. It's a complicated mess, much more relevant in pornography and within the bounds of BDSM scenes than in people's regular lives, and has only a weird, complicated relationship with the greater issues around gender diversity and trans lives and all of that. It's a niche interest, it does some good for some people, doesn't work for others, has a complex relationship with some problematic stuff, like a lot of niche interests.

I think "forced" tropes like this in erotic fiction (including the concrete fiction of role-played scenes) honestly have a deep-seated thing in common with our culture's current fascination with apocalyptic/revolutionary fiction: a lot of people have a profound yearning to be forgiven for breaking rules that they know are hurting them but don't feel able to fight alone. They want to be rescued from the routines and strictures of their lives and explore something else, and they want to be released from the responsibility and weight of being the one to pull the trigger. It makes a lot of sense that dynamics like that would have a strong effect. How many of us, one way or another, have a regular twinge of "this way of life isn't working, but I don't know how to change it"?

Faemon · « **Reply #7 on:** November 02, 2014, 10:05:50 pm »

Quote from: Sobekemiti;163825

Feel free to PM me if you want to talk. I might not have all the answers, but I'm very good at listening.

Thank you so much for sharing all this! I'm more up for just other people's personal experiences and thoughts about it, so not having capital-a Answers is perfect

Quote from: PrincessKLS;163819

perhaps people can have 3 or 4 seperate gender identities within them. Not just the binary ones.

Where I live (and where I grew up), some tribes leave a hint of a history of different gender societal structure than the colonialists had brought. I'm limited to working with the social vocabulary that I'm given, though, so while I'm aware of and feel maybe something beyond the binary, I can still only think through that filter.

Quote from: Jake_;163888

hey, I want you to know I am going to reply to this but it might take me a couple of days to get my thoughts together

Quote from: SunflowerP;163889

Like Jake, I have a response to this, but it'll likely take me a day or two to pull it together.

Take as much time as you will. I did ask some colossally vague questions.

Quote from: Valentine;163899

a lot of people have a profound yearning to be forgiven for breaking rules that they know are hurting them but don't feel able to fight alone.

I consider that very interesting because 1.) I feel that's true, and 2.) if talking about it, my thought process would probably have stopped at, "A lot of people have a profound yearning to break down society." (As a way to explain the popularity of dystopia nowadays.)

The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

News:

Recent Posts

Author Topic: Other: How queer is queer? (Read 2587 times)

Faemon

How queer is queer?

PrincessKLS

Re: How queer is queer?

Sobekemiti

Re: How queer is queer?

PrincessKLS

Re: How queer is queer?

Sarah

Re: How queer is queer?

SunflowerP

Re: How queer is queer?

Valentine

Re: How queer is queer?

Faemon

Re: How queer is queer?

Related Topics

Who's Online

Please Donate!

Shop & Support TC

In Memoriam

Cauldron Staff