Author Topic: Pagan stances on euthanasia? (Read 8499 times)

Materialist · « **Reply #15 on:** October 30, 2014, 11:42:24 am »

Quote from: SunflowerP;163826

You appear to be unclear on what palliative care refers to, Materialist.

I know what the word means. Do you know my level of English language education that you know, for a fact, that I do not know the definition of the word? Are you telepathic that know that I am ignorant of its meaning?

Medical care can alleviate someone of death for a while.

Presuming and assuming about someone you don't know is the better part of stupid.

Materialist · « **Reply #16 on:** October 30, 2014, 11:45:27 am »

Quote from: Nautilus;163491

I was interested in what the various religious positions are, but I wouldn't mind a discussion of whether it should be legal or not.

I did give you my religious opinion, if that wasn't clear.

Nautilus · « **Reply #17 on:** October 30, 2014, 03:13:04 pm »

Quote from: Materialist;163791

And even though you insist only the dying person can push the button, many people are unable to make this choice, or end their own lives, on their own because they are severely mentally and physically impaired.

I do have to agree with you on this point--what about someone who's paralyzed? And I was reading an article about Brittaney Maynard where she said every day she delays because she can still enjoy life is a risk that she'll become unable to take the pills herself. So this situation could push people into ending things before they're ready, just in case they don't have the chance later.

Nautilus · « **Reply #18 on:** October 30, 2014, 03:14:34 pm »

Quote from: Materialist;163870

I did give you my religious opinion, if that wasn't clear.

Oh, okay. I see now. Thanks for clarifying, at first I'd thought you were just summing up the legal situation.

HeartShadow · « **Reply #19 on:** October 30, 2014, 04:27:11 pm »

Quote from: Materialist;163869

I know what the word means. Do you know my level of English language education that you know, for a fact, that I do not know the definition of the word? Are you telepathic that know that I am ignorant of its meaning?

Medical care can alleviate someone of death for a while.

Presuming and assuming about someone you don't know is the better part of stupid.

Then why did your own response imply that pallative care was something completely different?

Doesn't take telepathy there. Basic reading skills makes it look like you conflated pallative care and at-all-costs lifesaving. If you didn't - yolk's on you.

Ghostlight · « **Reply #20 on:** November 05, 2014, 04:40:37 am »

Quote from: EJay;163611

Ha!! That snuck in and was totally off-topic and didn't see it until after I posted. Sorry 'bout that!

My point was that there's a time and place and death will find us all. If we jump on a grenade to save a buddy's life or we push someone out from in front of a speeding car or we stand up to militants and get beheaded, then killing yourself means something.

Pain teaches many lessons. If I was in horrible pain, either physical or mental, I would never ask someone else to carry the burden of my death. If I choose to die, that's all on me.

Again, sorry, but I have a lot of opinions on death! People love me at parties! :whis:

If pain teaches lessons we have to learn doesn’t that mean that palliative care is also counterproductive for personal growth? It’s okay to give someone just enough morphine to relieve the pain, but not enough to kill them because they need to stay alive as long as possible to feel the pain they can’t feel because they’re getting morphine? Seems like an arbitrary line to draw. How do you know how much pain is “necessary”? And can you really make that decision for someone else?

I also believe that death, too, has many lessons to teach. It’s not good to make important decisions out of fear and despair. However, I don’t think that choosing to end your life is always a decision made of fear. Just like choosing to stay alive is not always a sign of bravery. Many people do so not because they love life but because they fear death so much and this doesn’t result in a happy existence. I think it takes tremendous strength to accept death and welcome it on your own terms, as does being able to end another person’s life out of mercy.

I certainly think that it should always be your own decision. But as has been said you may not be physically able to end your own life. You can tell people what you would want to happen. But if you have a sudden accident or stroke or whatever, you may no longer be able to end your life yourself. So you would need someone to do it for you. Of course this is a huge burden to put on someone else. But I think if you know that someone doesn’t want to live like that it’s very cruel to force them to keep suffering just because you aren’t strong enough to respect their wishes and give them mercy.

Also, knowing that someone will help you if you can’t kill yourself anymore can actually encourage people to live longer. For example, if you’re diagnosed with a degenerative disease, you never know how much time you have. Every day you choose to still enjoy could be the last day you can end your own life. The next day it might be too late. So if you know you have to do it yourself and no one will help you, you may feel pressured to end your life while you still can do it yourself even though you’re not yet suffering enough to want to die.

And whether you do it yourself or someone else does it for you, you still need access to the proper medication for a clean and painless death. Otherwise, what are you supposed to do? Hang yourself in your house for your family to find you? Jump in front of a train to traumatise the conductor, the passengers and the people that have to gather up your remains? Those don’t seem like good options.

And again, being able to openly talk about and plan your death may reduce the number of people killing themselves in a panic after a bad diagnosis. If you’re encouraged to talk to a professional to acquire the necessary medication then that professional can assess your situation and maybe point to alternatives or at least encourage you to pull through a little longer with the help of proper treatment.

Nautilus · « **Reply #21 on:** November 09, 2014, 03:45:00 pm »

Quote from: Ghostlight;164409

If pain teaches lessons we have to learn doesn’t that mean that palliative care is also counterproductive for personal growth? It’s okay to give someone just enough morphine to relieve the pain, but not enough to kill them because they need to stay alive as long as possible to feel the pain they can’t feel because they’re getting morphine? Seems like an arbitrary line to draw. How do you know how much pain is “necessary”? And can you really make that decision for someone else?

I'm a little worried that I may have stated my own opinion that we should have a choice in the matter too strongly--I am interested in people's beliefs on the matter, but I DO believe it should be legal to get medical aid to end our lives (with some screening) so that it can be the individual's choice, rather than someone else's opinion, or that of someone else's religion.

And then there's the question of judging someone else's pain (physical or mental). I've been in a lot of situations personally and seen situations where someone doesn't want to deal with the consequences or emotional burden of someone else's suffering. It's difficult enough to deal with generally--having people dismiss my problems as either excuses or hypochondria, or trying to badger me into doing things that I want to do but am not physically capable of doing. I would hate to be kept alive against my will because someone was in denial of how severe my suffering was.

I am honestly curious--what is the lesson that we learn from pain?

EJay · « **Reply #22 on:** February 20, 2015, 03:32:00 am »

Quote from: Ghostlight;164409

If pain teaches lessons we have to learn doesn’t that mean that palliative care is also counterproductive for personal growth? It’s okay to give someone just enough morphine to relieve the pain, but not enough to kill them because they need to stay alive as long as possible to feel the pain they can’t feel because they’re getting morphine? Seems like an arbitrary line to draw. How do you know how much pain is “necessary”? And can you really make that decision for someone else?

Great questions and you're right. It is an arbitrary line to draw for each person. But when I talked of pain, it wasn't just physical. It's moving through the pain. Maybe the pain is physical, but it's often psychological or spiritual. And it's the individual that decides on how much pain is necessary. For me, I don't know whether the pain of living with a horrible disease and watching my family suffer with me is worse than them having to live with the idea that I took my own life. Don't know.

Quote from: Ghostlight;164409

I also believe that death, too, has many lessons to teach. It’s not good to make important decisions out of fear and despair. However, I don’t think that choosing to end your life is always a decision made of fear. Just like choosing to stay alive is not always a sign of bravery. Many people do so not because they love life but because they fear death so much and this doesn’t result in a happy existence. I think it takes tremendous strength to accept death and welcome it on your own terms, as does being able to end another person’s life out of mercy.

There's just that part of me, after witnessing so many folks' deaths, that I wonder if we stop just short of... something... if we prematurely die at our own hand.

And I've thought about this a lot because I keep saying I will take my life rather than have my family go through... stuff... if and when I get that sick.

Quote from: Ghostlight;164409

I certainly think that it should always be your own decision. But as has been said you may not be physically able to end your own life. You can tell people what you would want to happen. But if you have a sudden accident or stroke or whatever, you may no longer be able to end your life yourself. So you would need someone to do it for you. Of course this is a huge burden to put on someone else.

I would NEVER ask someone to take on that responsibility. I'd rather them have to care for me and do all the gnarly stuff rather than live with the guilt. Guilt is probably the hardest emotion to live with, IMHO.

You really gave me some things to think about. I had to stop a few times and consider. Thanks for all that.

EJay · « **Reply #23 on:** February 20, 2015, 03:50:46 am »

Quote from: Nautilus;164856

I'm a little worried that I may have stated my own opinion that we should have a choice in the matter too strongly--I am interested in people's beliefs on the matter, but I DO believe it should be legal to get medical aid to end our lives (with some screening) so that it can be the individual's choice, rather than someone else's opinion, or that of someone else's religion.

And then there's the question of judging someone else's pain (physical or mental). I've been in a lot of situations personally and seen situations where someone doesn't want to deal with the consequences or emotional burden of someone else's suffering. It's difficult enough to deal with generally--having people dismiss my problems as either excuses or hypochondria, or trying to badger me into doing things that I want to do but am not physically capable of doing. I would hate to be kept alive against my will because someone was in denial of how severe my suffering was.

I also believe it should be the individual's right to choose. But I still have spiritual doubts if it's the wrong decision because God/dess has given us so much time and maybe we're cutting the rope right before we reach the top of the mountain. I just don't know. That's where my doubts come in.

Quote from: Nautilus;164856

I am honestly curious--what is the lesson that we learn from pain?

I believe that pain makes us realize what we find important.

HeartShadow · « **Reply #24 on:** February 20, 2015, 12:51:34 pm »

Quote from: EJay;171181

I believe that pain makes us realize what we find important.

.... really? 'cause I suffer from chronic pain issues, and usually it makes me realize that pain sucks. And that I turn into a nasty cranky evil person that I don't like very much when it gets really bad.

I hear a lot about all these mystic things pain and suffering supposedly teach. I find it ... very odd.

Sefiru · « **Reply #25 on:** February 20, 2015, 05:53:34 pm »

Quote from: HeartShadow;171216

.... really? 'cause I suffer from chronic pain issues, and usually it makes me realize that pain sucks. And that I turn into a nasty cranky evil person that I don't like very much when it gets really bad.

I hear a lot about all these mystic things pain and suffering supposedly teach. I find it ... very odd.

I wonder if it's a version of the Just World Fallacy? Only instead of claiming "... because you must have done something to deserve it", this version goes "... because there must be some sort of benefit to it." Still a fallacy, though.

mandrina · « **Reply #26 on:** February 21, 2015, 12:27:35 am »

Quote from: HeartShadow;171216

.... really? 'cause I suffer from chronic pain issues, and usually it makes me realize that pain sucks. And that I turn into a nasty cranky evil person that I don't like very much when it gets really bad.

I hear a lot about all these mystic things pain and suffering supposedly teach. I find it ... very odd.

The only thing I can figure out that pain teaches me is to study up on new drugs and treatments, try to get them through my doc and insurance, use whatever alternative medicine seems to help in and pray that I die before my money runs out as an old woman. It does make me put my plans in order of importance, but when the spoons run out, sometimes really important stuff hasn't been done.

Lokison · « **Reply #27 on:** February 21, 2015, 11:17:24 am »

Quote from: Nautilus;163364

I'm curious about something. There have been a few news articles recently about euthanasia and assisted suicide. Is there a religious duty to go on living until the bitter end? What about non-terminal illnesses, and where do you draw the line? Or is it entirely the choice of individuals?

Have you checked out the Church of Euthanasia?

EJay · « **Reply #28 on:** March 05, 2015, 04:19:11 am »

Quote from: HeartShadow;171216

.... really? 'cause I suffer from chronic pain issues, and usually it makes me realize that pain sucks. And that I turn into a nasty cranky evil person that I don't like very much when it gets really bad.

I hear a lot about all these mystic things pain and suffering supposedly teach. I find it ... very odd.

I have chronic issues as well. I'm trying to figure out why and what it means. I sometimes go whack-o with anger and fortunately my family forgives me the next day because I do go off.

I don't know yet what my pain means but I do believe I'm being steered in a direction--to go back to my brain instead of relying on my hands.

Pain bites the weanie, but we're driven by moving toward pleasure and avoiding pain.

Elding · « **Reply #29 on:** November 21, 2015, 11:48:26 am »

Quote from: Nautilus;163364

I'm curious about something. There have been a few news articles recently about euthanasia and assisted suicide. I know the Christian position of Just Say No, and I've read comments various places by people whose religions were not specified about going through the dying process (or living with an untreatable illness) as necessary for spiritual growth or working off karma etc. (Although I have some doubts about how much spiritual growth someone is going to accomplish when kept alive against their will—or with dementia.) So I was wondering if any of the various pagan religions had a viewpoint on this. Is there a religious duty to go on living until the bitter end? What about non-terminal illnesses, and where do you draw the line? Or is it entirely the choice of individuals?

Heathenism contains many sources of suicide, both archaeologically and in the sagas and historical records, and it was probably viewed as an acceptable thing to some extent or other. A common theme is the choice of slaves or family members to be voluntarily killed and accompanying their master, friend or family into death. Ibn Fadlans record of a slave woman being voluntarily sacrificed is one (admittedly gruesome) example. While this isn't about euthanasia specifically, it hints at the idea that suicide wasn't all OMG SO EVIL YOU'LL GO TO HELL. Furthermore, all over Scandinavia, there are archaeological sites under cliff walls, where large amounts of bones of old people have been found. We don't know if they were murdered by being thrown off the cliff or if they jumped by their own accord, and such sites are more recent than viking times. But the truth is, this is a harsh land for people who would have lived without the comforts of modern technology. Sometimes there was starvation, and it isn't such a stretch of imagination to think that a people so unafraid of death might make a sacrifice out of it - willingly dying so that younger or more able people would not have so much competition for food in scarce times.

In heathenism, death is not such a terrible thing. In the sagas, plenty of people go into death without fear, and death was simply part of every day life and an accepted part of the culture. My personal interpretation is that while death is to be avoided, it is because you can't live a good life if you're dead! xD
But sometimes, there is no way for you to live well. Perhaps your body and your mind have deteriorated to the point where there is nothing more before death but physical and mental suffering. You might spend years being nothing but a burden on others, perhaps you're even abandoned by your family. Perhaps you cannot move or speak, left all day to stare at the ceiling. Perhaps you are so sick that the hospital pulls the plug on the feeding tubes, and you are left to await death through starvation and dehydration.

Heathenism doesn't have a concept of dharma or karma. Bad deeds will come and bite you in the ass for sure, but it's not like you have a set amount of suffering you need to do in order to "clear" it.

In my personal view, euthanasia should really be a last resource. Suicide isn't something you should turn to because you've lost one sense or one limb or because you are depressed. It's something that can be an option if death is already unavoidable, or if nothing but excruciating pain awaits you if you choose to stay alive.

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Author Topic: Pagan stances on euthanasia? (Read 8499 times)

Materialist

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Nautilus

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Nautilus

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Ghostlight

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EJay

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EJay

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HeartShadow

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Sefiru

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mandrina

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Lokison

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EJay

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Elding

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