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Author Topic: Bring Your Bible to School Day  (Read 10143 times)

Jenett

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Re: Bring Your Bible to School Day
« Reply #90 on: October 19, 2014, 06:21:56 pm »
Quote from: carillion;162881
My child learned more about religions other than christianity when in school here in Canada in the Social Studies classes.


And how much more would your child have learned in a comparative religions class focusing on the religions of the world? That's part of my point.

(Social studies classes are very unlikely to cover, say, modern Paganism. They are very unlikely to more than trivially cover Quakerism or Mormonism, both of which have had a substantial effect on various parts of the US at different times. Or the equivalents elsewhere, I'm guessing.

The way social studies classes cover Catholicism is often atrocious bordering on libellous, in terms of conveying accurate information about the modern religion - I've noted on here before that I experienced far more overt *nasty* harassment as an active Catholic in high school and college in New England than I ever have as a Pagan.)

I don't think comparative religion should be a required class - but I do think it's a valuable elective to offer, and that having it present in the school can encourage important conversations.

I'm reminded of a conversation at the school I worked at mentioned earlier in this thread where I walked by a table of boys in the library who were actively engaged in really good discussion about how their respective religions dealt with something. I wasn't trying to overhear, but I was working on re-labelling magazine shelves in the area, so I was near them for about 20 minutes.

I know one was Hindu (very much a minority in that particular area), one was Protestant, one was culturally but not very religiously Jewish (his self-identification) and I forget the last. And they were having that conversation because of a speaker who'd been brought in for the comparative religions class, which I think none of them were even *taking*, but they were continuing a conversation started at lunch with a friend who was in the class. (This was about 7 years ago now, but I think the speaker was talking about misassumptions about religions, and the speaker was from a religion that was not widely known.)

That's a pretty cool feat of education. And it doesn't happen if you don't spend time saying "Hey, let's talk about this." Or if you don't have time in the curriculum to bring in people from religions who would get glossed over in any course that's also trying to jam in history and geography and economic structures and literature and art and music and so on.

Again, I'm not arguing for a class called 'religious education' (I agree, that families and religious communities should do their own, in terms of 'how are you a member of this religion'.)

Comparative religion, however, is an academic area that is about how religions work (both on their own, and in context of each other) and it is just as reasonable to offer it as to offer electives in economics or psychology or sociology (all of which that school also offered).

(I'd also argue that general religious literacy is highly beneficial to the community at large, though very sadly lacking. That's a whole other conversation, though.)
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carillion

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Re: Bring Your Bible to School Day
« Reply #91 on: October 19, 2014, 06:44:33 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;162885
And how much more would your child have learned in a comparative religions class focusing on the religions of the world? That's part of my point.

(Social studies classes are very unlikely to cover, say, modern Paganism. They are very unlikely to more than trivially cover Quakerism or Mormonism, both of which have had a substantial effect on various parts of the US at different times. Or the equivalents elsewhere, I'm guessing.

The way social studies classes cover Catholicism is often atrocious bordering on libellous, in terms of conveying accurate information about the modern religion - I've noted on here before that I experienced far more overt *nasty* harassment as an active Catholic in high school and college in New England than I ever have as a Pagan.)

I don't think comparative religion should be a required class - but I do think it's a valuable elective to offer, and that having it present in the school can encourage important conversations.

I'm reminded of a conversation at the school I worked at mentioned earlier in this thread where I walked by a table of boys in the library who were actively engaged in really good discussion about how their respective religions dealt with something. I wasn't trying to overhear, but I was working on re-labelling magazine shelves in the area, so I was near them for about 20 minutes.

I know one was Hindu (very much a minority in that particular area), one was Protestant, one was culturally but not very religiously Jewish (his self-identification) and I forget the last. And they were having that conversation because of a speaker who'd been brought in for the comparative religions class, which I think none of them were even *taking*, but they were continuing a conversation started at lunch with a friend who was in the class. (This was about 7 years ago now, but I think the speaker was talking about misassumptions about religions, and the speaker was from a religion that was not widely known.)

That's a pretty cool feat of education. And it doesn't happen if you don't spend time saying "Hey, let's talk about this." Or if you don't have time in the curriculum to bring in people from religions who would get glossed over in any course that's also trying to jam in history and geography and economic structures and literature and art and music and so on.

Again, I'm not arguing for a class called 'religious education' (I agree, that families and religious communities should do their own, in terms of 'how are you a member of this religion'.)

Comparative religion, however, is an academic area that is about how religions work (both on their own, and in context of each other) and it is just as reasonable to offer it as to offer electives in economics or psychology or sociology (all of which that school also offered).

(I'd also argue that general religious literacy is highly beneficial to the community at large, though very sadly lacking. That's a whole other conversation, though.)

But 'comparative religion' classes were not on offer, just 'religious education' classes that stuck to Christianity - that was part of my point.  And please believe me when I say the kids here are not short-changed on depth in exchange for bredth. I can send you the grade 8 Social Studies curriculum if you like and you will see it does not skip over anything.
As for the different relgions, you pointed out that the Quaker and Mormon faiths had a huge impact on the U.S.. They didn't in Canada but rather than not mention them at all, they get mentioned when the history of of the U.S. and it's States and *their* history is brought up. Otherwise perhaps nothing would be heard of at all.
One cannot make head nor tails of a lot of European history without bringing in religion but I question the need to go in depth on all possible religious permutations.

it's just my own belief that if one doesn't put it into context it appears as if religion itself stands alone , like geology. Geoglogy is interesting but perhaps not as meaningful to a young person until you explain what a mountain is.


Vancouver has the highest Asian population of any city in the world outside Asia. That means a staggering  variety and variation of faiths and that's without bringing in all the other faiths from the different cultures here. Which should get the most time?

With so few teachers for so many students and important areas like the Arts being the first to get the chop, I don't think religion is that important for time and money to be spent on it exclusively. A private school is another matter, you pay, you choose. But for public education I think religion can be taken care of by parents and the community except as part of the general history and sociology of the world which children learn in school anyway.
That's what churches and houses of worship are for. That is *not*...what schools are for. There are no other places for kids to go to learn math, languages, history, science etc.  whereas there are plenty of places, starting with their friends and families and moving out to places of worship where they can go to learn about religions.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 06:45:19 pm by carillion »

Merin

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Re: Bring Your Bible to School Day
« Reply #92 on: October 19, 2014, 07:46:57 pm »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;162533
So, can I send my kids in with their My Little Satanic Bible?

 
Yes, and I'll bring my big Book O' Shadows.

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Re: Bring Your Bible to School Day
« Reply #93 on: October 19, 2014, 07:55:15 pm »
Quote from: Merin;162903
Yes, and I'll bring my big Book O' Shadows.

 
Sounds like a plan to me!

Let's really give the fundies coronaries!
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Nyktipolos

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Re: Bring Your Bible to School Day
« Reply #94 on: October 19, 2014, 08:09:34 pm »
Quote from: carillion;162875
There are no RE classes in schools where I live in Canada. The seperation of church and state is firmly adhered to in public schools. I believe the different kinds of religion would be covered in a class known as 'social studies' which looks at different cultures (within and without the country) and around the world. This puts religion into cultural and historical context.

 
I guess it really depends on where you live. I've attended and know comparative religion classes are being taught where I am.
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PrincessKLS

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Re: Bring Your Bible to School Day
« Reply #95 on: October 19, 2014, 09:27:08 pm »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;162906
Sounds like a plan to me!

Let's really give the fundies coronaries!

 
I want to see that.
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Re: Bring Your Bible to School Day
« Reply #96 on: October 20, 2014, 05:17:42 am »
Quote from: Chatelaine;162882
I suspect the material is closely linked to school demographics. The purpose of RE in British schools basically boils down to 'be informed so you can all get along'. We have a good lot of Asian people in the area, so Buddhism and Hinduism got a lot of class time in my day. Islam, Sikhism and Taoism were touched upon tangentially, while Judaism was pretty much ignored. I would expect a Catholic school, for example, to assign its material very differently, and probably so would another public school with, say, a more WASPy population.

There is a national curriculum which dictates a lot of the content of RS lessons. It does give teachers leeway to focus on a range of religions, but students are expected to have studied several different religions by the age of 16, and the range of religions should reflect the community in which they live (including the religious makeup of the school). There's also a right of withdrawal from RS, if parents don't wish their children to study it -  although it's rare that this right is taken up. See here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/religious-education-guidance-in-english-schools-non-statutory-guidance-2010 for more on the content of the curriculum.

This government document states a number of aims for the study of RS, including community cohesion, understanding of society (UK and global), personal development, and teaching students how to think (since philosophy and ethics are often included in the curriculum).
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Re: Bring Your Bible to School Day
« Reply #97 on: October 20, 2014, 05:39:26 am »
Quote from: carillion;162888
And please believe me when I say the kids here are not short-changed on depth in exchange for bredth. I can send you the grade 8 Social Studies curriculum if you like and you will see it does not skip over anything.

 
I'm curious if I'm misunderstanding you or you're saying that grade 8 Social Studies covers all religions in complex depth? I mean, I'm impressed if that's true, because my grade 8 Social Studies class didn't even cover all continents in complex depth.
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sailor

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Re: Bring Your Bible to School Day
« Reply #98 on: October 20, 2014, 07:47:43 am »
Quote from: carillion;162863
Yes, that's why I said I was an 'outsider' to this conversation: this situation would never come up where I live in Canada. We don't have RE here and religion is considered the private concern of the pupil and their family.

 
It would never come up because it would be illegal to bringa  religious text to school for personal reading?

Or is it "just not done", and if so, why?

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Re: Bring Your Bible to School Day
« Reply #99 on: October 20, 2014, 07:53:18 am »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;162906
Sounds like a plan to me!

Let's really give the fundies coronaries!

 
Be careful, you are falling to Scalia's trap of keeping religion in the public square.  

Rather than banning religion, like the liberal wing, Scalia wants to make sure that minoritiy religions get treated the same as the local major one.  So the Baptist run school board in North Carolina wouldn't be allowed to serve it's once a week fish stick school lunch on Thursday to screw over the Catholic kids who (at the time) were not allowed to eat meat on Fridays.  

Or in Hawaii, with a large Buddish population, having Buddist clergy (correct name?) leading public high school football pre-game prayers.

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Re: Bring Your Bible to School Day
« Reply #100 on: October 20, 2014, 08:42:30 am »
Quote from: sailor;162968
Be careful, you are falling to Scalia's trap of keeping religion in the public square.  

Rather than banning religion, like the liberal wing, Scalia wants to make sure that minoritiy religions get treated the same as the local major one.  So the Baptist run school board in North Carolina wouldn't be allowed to serve it's once a week fish stick school lunch on Thursday to screw over the Catholic kids who (at the time) were not allowed to eat meat on Fridays.  

Or in Hawaii, with a large Buddish population, having Buddist clergy (correct name?) leading public high school football pre-game prayers.

 
That's a trap? I don't want to ban religion or force it to be private. Only thing I want to ban is the Christian dominion on public expression of religion.
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PrincessKLS

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Re: Bring Your Bible to School Day
« Reply #101 on: October 20, 2014, 08:49:01 am »
Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;162974
That's a trap? I don't want to ban religion or force it to be private. Only thing I want to ban is the Christian dominion on public expression of religion.

 

Me too and having Buddhists lead a prayer or moment of silence for a game would be an alternative solution to leading a Christian prayer all the time.
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PrincessKLS

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Re: Bring Your Bible to School Day
« Reply #102 on: October 20, 2014, 08:54:02 am »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;162913
I guess it really depends on where you live. I've attended and know comparative religion classes are being taught where I am.

 
Where I live you don't get classes like that until you go to college. Assuming you actually go to the few public colleges here and not for one of the many private, Christian colleges here in my part of Virginia. At my school, we even have a Religious Studies minor that teaches you about various religion and their texts. I think the best my high school had was a college-level Humanities course. I had a few friends take it and they said the teacher was open minded and people were allowed and even encouraged to learn about different religions. One of my friends even did a paper on Satanism for the class.
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Re: Bring Your Bible to School Day
« Reply #103 on: October 20, 2014, 02:14:44 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;162979
Where I live you don't get classes like that until you go to college. Assuming you actually go to the few public colleges here and not for one of the many private, Christian colleges here in my part of Virginia. At my school, we even have a Religious Studies minor that teaches you about various religion and their texts. I think the best my high school had was a college-level Humanities course. I had a few friends take it and they said the teacher was open minded and people were allowed and even encouraged to learn about different religions. One of my friends even did a paper on Satanism for the class.
Yeah, I went to a state school and Religious Studies is actually what my BA is in, and most people don't really know what it is and assume it's like Theology. (The head of my department at the time was a seminary-trained atheist. Those were fun, if underfunded, times.)
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Re: Bring Your Bible to School Day
« Reply #104 on: October 20, 2014, 07:12:11 pm »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;162913
I guess it really depends on where you live. I've attended and know comparative religion classes are being taught where I am.

 
We had a World Religions elective class at my high school (grade 11 I think?). looking back, it was kind of ... lackluster. I guess it was inevitable that the treatment of various religions was superficial, since it was only a 1-semester class.

I remember we did research projects on various smaller denominations/religions, and my group got Scientology :eek: This was mid-90s, so pre-internet and before Scientology's more disturbing aspects were widely known. If I knew then what I knew now, LOL.

I went to Sunday School all of once before my parents stopped attending church (I was in the playroom for the really little kids before that). All I remember is being terribly confused because nobody explained what the group was doing.
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