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Author Topic: Food: vegetarianism as a spectrum  (Read 5608 times)

PrincessKLS

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vegetarianism as a spectrum
« on: September 24, 2014, 06:46:43 pm »
Okay so I know within the vegetarian community there's anonimisty against people who identify as basically semi-vegetarians,(usually people who basically cutout pork and/or red meat), pescetarians (fish only), and flexitarian (who could basically be meat-eating vegetarians). The anomosity mostly coming from vegetarians that identify strictly as the ovo-lacto, lacto, ovo, or even the strictest vegan/fruitarian kinds. And of course macrobiotics is it's own unique category. I can understand this but also someone who is currently a semi-vegetarian, who's tried ovo-lacto, and of course has ate the typical, American southern diet for nearly 30 or 31 years; I have to say, sometimes we need a break. A lot of people these days tend to do the vegetarian or vegan diet more out of health and environmental concerns than animal welfare. Anyway, I was wondering if vegetarianism, if you look at it as a whole and at global perspective, could technically be a spectrum. In general there's no perfectly vegetarian or vegan culture, even Indians have chicken in a lot there dishes, and they are supposed to be one if not the most vegetarian friendly diets/cultures. And I know from studying other cultures food pyramids and real foods that not all mediterreans or Latin Americans are beef or pork obsessed, even most Asian countries don't prepare lots of meat on a daily basis like a major parts of America do. Outside of America, the only place on earth where from a natural standpoint I would find it practically impossible to follow a vegetarian or much less a vegan diet is probably anywhere the tundra of the arctic is situated. Basically in the most northern parts of Canada, Alaska even, and the Nordic regions of Europe and Asia, since practically nothing can grow there and to eat a natural, local diet you would have to depend mostly on the sea life, and the few land animals that were there for food. Even food-starved areas in Africa have some traditionally meaty or dairy related dishes. Although I think rice and grains are the most common.

Okay for the long educational rant, but my point is, it seems like from an American standpoint (I can't really speak for other countries due to lack of experience) but in certain parts of this country people look at you weird if you don't eat meat or some type of animal product for like every meal or even for a day. Before I became a semi-vegetarian, I still would eat meatless meals almost everyday for one or two meals and rarely ate meat for snacks. That's how meat obsessed America is, we even have meat snacks.  But from a global perspective you can't really say you are a vegetarian or vegan even if you only ate meat and/or dairy products once or twice a week. So can vegetarianism really be a spectrum or is it really that cut and dry. I mean obviously eating too much meat, especially red meat can cause major health problems that IMHO are worse than being 100 or even 200 lbs overweight. Yet, we have a huge (pardon the pun) populous in America who see red meat as necessary, we've even had diets based around the idea that pork and red meat  needs to be consumed at every meal. Heck, we even have some people in America who believe it's unmanly not to eat red meat and pork. Also some of these same people make fun of people who eat their fruits and veggies and claim total hatred for them.
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Re: vegetarianism as a spectrum....
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2014, 07:06:10 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;160197
Okay so I know within the vegetarian community there's anonimisty against people who identify as basically semi-vegetarians,(usually people who basically cutout pork and/or red meat), pescetarians (fish only), and flexitarian (who could basically be meat-eating vegetarians). The anomosity mostly coming from vegetarians that identify strictly as the ovo-lacto, lacto, ovo, or even the strictest vegan/fruitarian kinds. And of course macrobiotics is it's own unique category. I can understand this but also someone who is currently a semi-vegetarian, who's tried ovo-lacto, and of course has ate the typical, American southern diet for nearly 30 or 31 years; I have to say, sometimes we need a break. A lot of people these days tend to do the vegetarian or vegan diet more out of health and environmental concerns than animal welfare. Anyway, I was wondering if vegetarianism, if you look at it as a whole and at global perspective, could technically be a spectrum. In general there's no perfectly vegetarian or vegan culture, even Indians have chicken in a lot there dishes, and they are supposed to be one if not the most vegetarian friendly diets/cultures. And I know from studying other cultures food pyramids and real foods that not all mediterreans or Latin Americans are beef or pork obsessed, even most Asian countries don't prepare lots of meat on a daily basis like a major parts of America do. Outside of America, the only place on earth where from a natural standpoint I would find it practically impossible to follow a vegetarian or much less a vegan diet is probably anywhere the tundra of the arctic is situated. Basically in the most northern parts of Canada, Alaska even, and the Nordic regions of Europe and Asia, since practically nothing can grow there and to eat a natural, local diet you would have to depend mostly on the sea life, and the few land animals that were there for food. Even food-starved areas in Africa have some traditionally meaty or dairy related dishes. Although I think rice and grains are the most common.

Okay for the long educational rant, but my point is, it seems like from an American standpoint (I can't really speak for other countries due to lack of experience) but in certain parts of this country people look at you weird if you don't eat meat or some type of animal product for like every meal or even for a day. Before I became a semi-vegetarian, I still would eat meatless meals almost everyday for one or two meals and rarely ate meat for snacks. That's how meat obsessed America is, we even have meat snacks.  But from a global perspective you can't really say you are a vegetarian or vegan even if you only ate meat and/or dairy products once or twice a week. So can vegetarianism really be a spectrum or is it really that cut and dry. I mean obviously eating too much meat, especially red meat can cause major health problems that IMHO are worse than being 100 or even 200 lbs overweight. Yet, we have a huge (pardon the pun) populous in America who see red meat as necessary, we've even had diets based around the idea that pork and red meat  needs to be consumed at every meal. Heck, we even have some people in America who believe it's unmanly not to eat red meat and pork. Also some of these same people make fun of people who eat their fruits and veggies and claim total hatred for them.


I'm not really sure what your question is. If people include or leave out certain foods for health reasons, that's just what it is- there is no label. The term 'vegetarian' simply means that for whatever reason, a person doesn't include meat in their diet.But if someone is vegan,that's usually for what they perceive as ethical reasons which is totally different and excluding being picky ( "well,  you swat flies,don't you? where is you reverance for 'life' there?) has no 'spectrum'.

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Re: vegetarianism as a spectrum....
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2014, 08:58:32 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;160197
I was wondering if vegetarianism, if you look at it as a whole and at global perspective, could technically be a spectrum.

But from a global perspective you can't really say you are a vegetarian or vegan even if you only ate meat and/or dairy products once or twice a week. So can vegetarianism really be a spectrum or is it really that cut and dry.

 
Why would you play the game of people who get ethnocentric about what you eat? It's fine to exercise one's agency and make what you eat a political statement, but cultivating omnivore-phobia?? Are you seriously taking those people seriously enough to trump up some dietary equivalent of the Kinsey scale to justify an act that you take that is necessary to your survival.
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Re: vegetarianism as a spectrum....
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2014, 02:15:43 am »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;160197
I mean obviously eating too much meat, especially red meat can cause major health problems that IMHO are worse than being 100 or even 200 lbs overweight.

 
Ummm...yeah. Pretty sure being overweight isn't in and of itself a health problem. Even doctors will tell you that it simply increases your risk of health problems.
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Re: vegetarianism as a spectrum....
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2014, 03:53:30 pm »
Quote from: carillion;160200
I'm not really sure what your question is. If people include or leave out certain foods for health reasons, that's just what it is- there is no label. The term 'vegetarian' simply means that for whatever reason, a person doesn't include meat in their diet.But if someone is vegan,that's usually for what they perceive as ethical reasons which is totally different and excluding being picky ( "well,  you swat flies,don't you? where is you reverance for 'life' there?) has no 'spectrum'.

 

Yeah I get that and sorry my long rant is littered with spelling and grammar errors but I tried to correct it and my server or something bumped me off. I guess I was just thinking about how much of the American landscape is obsessed with meat.  I mean how do you eat all types of meat and dairy products mindfully without falling into the American culture trap?
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Re: vegetarianism as a spectrum....
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2014, 04:22:13 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;160255
I mean how do you eat all types of meat and dairy products mindfully without falling into the American culture trap?

 
The same way you do anything else mindfully?

I mean, you might as well ask how you can go to the store - any store - without falling into "the American culture trap".
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Re: vegetarianism as a spectrum....
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2014, 05:21:44 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;160255
Yeah I get that and sorry my long rant is littered with spelling and grammar errors but I tried to correct it and my server or something bumped me off. I guess I was just thinking about how much of the American landscape is obsessed with meat.  I mean how do you eat all types of meat and dairy products mindfully without falling into the American culture trap?

 
With Darkhawk on this. But I know a lot of people who set up their lives so they can get the majority of their food from CSAs, co-ops, and small farms, where they know how the food was raised, how animals were cared for, etc.

(The milk in my fridge at the moment is from cows who live 2 miles away from me. I can drive over there and see them being happy cows. When they're butchered, it's by someone else locally, and the meat ends up in the farm store. It costs more, but it tastes awesome, and for a lot of people in my area, that's a comfortable compromise.)

I'm someone who needs more protein than I can get on a vegetarian diet (because I also can't eat soy, yay variable bodies being variable): how active I am about where my meat comes from varies based on my energy and how chaotic work is, but given the choice between two similar options, I will reliably take the one that involves better treatment for the animals.

I live in a rural area now, but when I lived in Minneapolis, there were several co-ops where getting sustainably raised meat and dairy were quite feasible.
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Re: vegetarianism as a spectrum....
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2014, 05:54:13 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;160197
Okay so I know within the vegetarian community there's anonimisty against people who identify as basically semi-vegetarians,(usually people who basically cutout pork and/or red meat), pescetarians (fish only), and flexitarian (who could basically be meat-eating vegetarians). The anomosity mostly coming from vegetarians that identify strictly as the ovo-lacto, lacto, ovo, or even the strictest vegan/fruitarian kinds. And of course macrobiotics is it's own unique category. I can understand this but also someone who is currently a semi-vegetarian, who's tried ovo-lacto, and of course has ate the typical, American southern diet for nearly 30 or 31 years; I have to say, sometimes we need a break. A lot of people these days tend to do the vegetarian or vegan diet more out of health and environmental concerns than animal welfare.



 Words are our main method of communication. Words tend to mean things. If people are using words incorrectly it can cause all kinds of problems for other people.

I think there's a lot of confusion because people have an (incorrect) assumption that "vegetarian" means "doesn't eat meat". Then add in things from food industries and other cultures where certain animal flesh is labelled as meat, or fish, or poultry, or sea food and it can add to the confusion.
Vegetarian means "does not eat anything that comes from dead animals, including slaughter by-products (such as gelatine, rennet etc)"
The above is taking "vegetarian" as it's standard form which is actually lacto-ovo vegetarian. I won't go into the other forms of vegetarianism but all of them have the basic "no dead animals" before excluding others or all animal products.  

When it comes to things like food, labels are very important. People with certain dietary requirements (whether it's by choice, religious or health reasons) find labels very useful in order to find food that they can eat.

If people start using those labels incorrectly to apply to their diet, and other people assume the label means the incorrect thing, that can cause all kinds of problems for other people. Sometimes very dangerous problems.

I know, personally, that when I ended up with chicken in my food at a restaurant, I was violently sick for a few days because my stomach cannot handle it (I won't discount physiological ewwwwwww factors either). When I asked the restaurant why there was goddamn chicken in my "vegetarian" dish, I got the reply that vegetarian meant didn't eat red meat, but all other animals were fine.
OK, for me, people mislabelling my food isn't life-threatening, but for others it can be. And when people misuse food labels it means more and more people can make mistakes that can cause big problems for the people who rely on the correct definition in order to find food they can eat.

A person either chooses to eats dead animals, or they choose not to eat dead animals. There is no middle ground. If somebody willingly chooses to consume any type of dead animal, then the word "vegetarian" has no relevance to their diet.

Also, vegan isn't just a diet. It's a lifestyle of which diet is a part, but not the whole part. If a person doesn't do the lifestyle part, they're not a vegan. Vegetarian, yes. Not vegan.

Now if people want to cut down on their meat intake, then great! But if they still choose to consume dead animals, they are not any form of vegetarian. They are a person who limits their meat intake or are a person who only eats xyz animals. They are not any form of vegetarian no matter how much they want to call themselves one.

Also, speaking as a very overweight vegetarian (who put on masses of weight when vegan) being vegetarian is not healthier than eating meat. And eating meat is not healthier than being vegetarian. It depends on what type of food a person eats as to whether their diet is healthy or not.  A balanced diet is needed. Excluding or not excluding meat from a diet does not automatically give it healthy diet brownie points.  It also doesn't give it automatic environmentally friendly brownie points either.

I'm of the opinion that people should eat whatever they want to eat and what they're happy to eat. Not eating dead animals makes me happy. Ending up with dead animals in my food because people misuse labels so they can claim special rainbow unicorn farts brownie points, does not make me happy.

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Re: vegetarianism as a spectrum....
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2014, 06:58:07 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;160197
In general there's no perfectly vegetarian or vegan culture, even Indians have chicken in a lot there dishes, and they are supposed to be one if not the most vegetarian friendly diets/cultures. And I know from studying other cultures food pyramids and real foods that not all mediterreans or Latin Americans are beef or pork obsessed, even most Asian countries don't prepare lots of meat on a daily basis like a major parts of America do.


I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet: many traditional cuisines use meat sparingly, not because of ethics, but because of economics. North America has its geography to thank for its abundant availability of meat: the huge ranch and grain lands of the prairies, combined with easy transport by rail and river. Not to mention modern factory farming and refrigeration methods.

I don't have the source to hand right now, but I recall reading that historically, the wealthiest tier of society (the specific reference was to Queen Elizabeth I, IIRC) did eat red meat at every meal, because they could afford to do so.
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Re: vegetarianism as a spectrum....
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2014, 08:09:49 pm »
Quote from: Aranel;160266
Words are our main method of communication. Words tend to mean things. If people are using words incorrectly it can cause all kinds of problems for other people.

I think there's a lot of confusion because people have an (incorrect) assumption that "vegetarian" means "doesn't eat meat". Then add in things from food industries and other cultures where certain animal flesh is labelled as meat, or fish, or poultry, or sea food and it can add to the confusion.
Vegetarian means "does not eat anything that comes from dead animals, including slaughter by-products (such as gelatine, rennet etc)"
The above is taking "vegetarian" as it's standard form which is actually lacto-ovo vegetarian. I won't go into the other forms of vegetarianism but all of them have the basic "no dead animals" before excluding others or all animal products.  

When it comes to things like food, labels are very important. People with certain dietary requirements (whether it's by choice, religious or health reasons) find labels very useful in order to find food that they can eat.

If people start using those labels incorrectly to apply to their diet, and other people assume the label means the incorrect thing, that can cause all kinds of problems for other people. Sometimes very dangerous problems.

I know, personally, that when I ended up with chicken in my food at a restaurant, I was violently sick for a few days because my stomach cannot handle it (I won't discount physiological ewwwwwww factors either). When I asked the restaurant why there was goddamn chicken in my "vegetarian" dish, I got the reply that vegetarian meant didn't eat red meat, but all other animals were fine.
OK, for me, people mislabelling my food isn't life-threatening, but for others it can be. And when people misuse food labels it means more and more people can make mistakes that can cause big problems for the people who rely on the correct definition in order to find food they can eat.

A person either chooses to eats dead animals, or they choose not to eat dead animals. There is no middle ground. If somebody willingly chooses to consume any type of dead animal, then the word "vegetarian" has no relevance to their diet.

Also, vegan isn't just a diet. It's a lifestyle of which diet is a part, but not the whole part. If a person doesn't do the lifestyle part, they're not a vegan. Vegetarian, yes. Not vegan.

Now if people want to cut down on their meat intake, then great! But if they still choose to consume dead animals, they are not any form of vegetarian. They are a person who limits their meat intake or are a person who only eats xyz animals. They are not any form of vegetarian no matter how much they want to call themselves one.

Also, speaking as a very overweight vegetarian (who put on masses of weight when vegan) being vegetarian is not healthier than eating meat. And eating meat is not healthier than being vegetarian. It depends on what type of food a person eats as to whether their diet is healthy or not.  A balanced diet is needed. Excluding or not excluding meat from a diet does not automatically give it healthy diet brownie points.  It also doesn't give it automatic environmentally friendly brownie points either.

I'm of the opinion that people should eat whatever they want to eat and what they're happy to eat. Not eating dead animals makes me happy. Ending up with dead animals in my food because people misuse labels so they can claim special rainbow unicorn farts brownie points, does not make me happy.


What, besides abstaining from consuming/using anything from senient creatures is involved in the 'lifestyle' of a vegan?

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Re: vegetarianism as a spectrum....
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2014, 08:31:03 pm »
Quote from: carillion;160276
What, besides abstaining from consuming/using anything from senient creatures is involved in the 'lifestyle' of a vegan?

 
"Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

And

"Vegans avoid exploiting animals for any purpose, with compassion being a key reason many choose a vegan lifestyle"

https://www.vegansociety.com/try-vegan/definition-veganism

And there's loads more information on that website.

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Re: vegetarianism as a spectrum....
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2014, 08:40:13 pm »
Quote from: Aranel;160280
"Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose."

And

"Vegans avoid exploiting animals for any purpose, with compassion being a key reason many choose a vegan lifestyle"

https://www.vegansociety.com/try-vegan/definition-veganism

And there's loads more information on that website.



Thanks. I think I misunderstood the term 'lifestyle'. I thought it meant things like work and such.

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Re: vegetarianism as a spectrum....
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2014, 11:24:59 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;160268
I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet: many traditional cuisines use meat sparingly, not because of ethics, but because of economics. North America has its geography to thank for its abundant availability of meat: the huge ranch and grain lands of the prairies, combined with easy transport by rail and river. Not to mention modern factory farming and refrigeration methods.

I don't have the source to hand right now, but I recall reading that historically, the wealthiest tier of society (the specific reference was to Queen Elizabeth I, IIRC) did eat red meat at every meal, because they could afford to do so.

 
I suspect that eating meat all the time is relatively new (past 150 years) in North America.  yeah, that's a big chunk of the time post European arrival, but similar to QE1 as you pointed out, it's economics rather than culture.

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Re: vegetarianism as a spectrum....
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2014, 10:55:49 am »
Quote from: carillion;160282
Thanks. I think I misunderstood the term 'lifestyle'. I thought it meant things like work and such.

 
While I often dislike broad uses of the term 'lifestyle' (Pagan lifestyle, polyamorous lifestyle, etc.) I think that in the case of being vegan, it's not an inappropriate term, since someone who avoids animal products is going to see the effect in what they do and don't eat, what they do and don't wear, quite possibly where and how they socialise (because it raises challenges for any event that involves food!), and quite likely where someone works, even if that leaves a bunch of options.

It's going to be a constant series of choices and decisions in someone's daily life in a way that, say, being Pagan often isn't in the same way, and they're a set of choices that are reasonably consistent across people who identify as vegan (unlike Paganism).
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Re: vegetarianism as a spectrum....
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2014, 12:40:19 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;160352
While I often dislike broad uses of the term 'lifestyle' (Pagan lifestyle, polyamorous lifestyle, etc.) I think that in the case of being vegan, it's not an inappropriate term, since someone who avoids animal products is going to see the effect in what they do and don't eat, what they do and don't wear, quite possibly where and how they socialise (because it raises challenges for any event that involves food!), and quite likely where someone works, even if that leaves a bunch of options.

It's going to be a constant series of choices and decisions in someone's daily life in a way that, say, being Pagan often isn't in the same way, and they're a set of choices that are reasonably consistent across people who identify as vegan (unlike Paganism).

 
Also in the vegan community, I know there's a lot of debate about the use of honey, some vegans are ok with it, while others are against it. Also  there's some vegan-esque movements that take it even further like the raw vegans and the fruitarians who see eating certain plant foods as a way of cruelty to living things because of the way some plants are picked. Also the raw food movement is a whole category of their own because some raw foodists aren't vegan and see eating raw meats and dairies as healthy.
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