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Author Topic: God-Perceptive  (Read 9960 times)

Juniperberry

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God-Perceptive
« on: September 22, 2014, 06:59:04 pm »
Lately I've been deconstructing what spirituality is to me, throwing a bunch a stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. I've been doing this because the spiritual styling of recon hasn't been working for me, but I knew a conventional UPG-saturated path wouldn't work for me either. The main problem is that I'm not god-bothered, but I'm also not atheistic. I feel like I sit in a vague, non-place of belief between the two.

But last night I think I hit on a phrase-- God-perceptive-- that really encapsulates the truth of the type of spiritual relationship I have. But I'm not 100% on this, so please help me iron it out.

To go back to a conversation in another thread, there are quite a few people here--myself included-- who claim deity doesn't speak to them, but yet something must 'speak' to us because we're here, passionately debating spirituality.  I think we often weigh our relationships with deity on a god-bothered scale, and find ourselves lacking in that department.

But here's what I'm thinking: God-bothered seems to be more about feeling compelled by deity. God-perceptive is simply being aware of deity.

For me, being god-perceptive means that I experience the presence of spirit as naturally and constantly as the presence of the other four elements. It's so natural, that at times it's not even a conscious experience, much like breathing. But that means I also fall into the trap of thinking that it isn't spiritual at all, because I think spiritual experience must mean intense, mystical deviations from the norm.

What's really going on is that I feel and experience the element of divinity in the world everyday, enough to know it's a truth, without feeling prompted to action by it. And I've made the false assumption that persuasion is what makes the god. It's as if every time I watched the rain fall, I didn't think it could really be rain because I didn't get the urge to stomp in puddles.  But the urge isn't the rain, the rain is simply itself.

Does that make sense to anyone else?
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Tom

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Re: God-Perceptive
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2014, 07:30:05 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;159835
But here's what I'm thinking: God-bothered seems to be more about feeling compelled by deity. God-perceptive is simply being aware of deity.

 
I'm not entirely sure I would describe being god-bothered as being compelled by the deity. After all, a number of us still reserve the right to say no. Most of my actions are done by my own free will and not because I'm compelled to do so. Maybe yes, my patron persuades me to a certain degree, but I'm pretty stubborn and it might take some time before I actually listen.

Being god-bothered actually seems...normal to me. It's just a thing that is. Perhaps it seems mystifying or awe-inspiring from the outside, but my interactions aren't always /intense/ or /mystical/ interactions.

Tom

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Re: God-Perceptive
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2014, 07:41:25 pm »
Quote from: Tom;159837
I'm not entirely sure I would describe being god-bothered as being compelled by the deity. After all, a number of us still reserve the right to say no. Most of my actions are done by my own free will and not because I'm compelled to do so. Maybe yes, my patron persuades me to a certain degree, but I'm pretty stubborn and it might take some time before I actually listen.

Being god-bothered actually seems...normal to me. It's just a thing that is. Perhaps it seems mystifying or awe-inspiring from the outside, but my interactions aren't always /intense/ or /mystical/ interactions.

 
I thought about this a bit more and it seems like being god-perceptive would be more like...you can hear the ambient noise around you, but it's really just kinda something you don't play much attention to. However, if you just focus on it a bit, you can make some of it out. Yet for the god-bothered, it's a lot louder and a lot harder to ignore or filter out of your head to focus on something else.

Does match up with what you're trying to say?

carillion

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Re: God-Perceptive
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2014, 07:42:30 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;159835
Lately I've been deconstructing what spirituality is to me, throwing a bunch a stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. I've been doing this because the spiritual styling of recon hasn't been working for me, but I knew a conventional UPG-saturated path wouldn't work for me either. The main problem is that I'm not god-bothered, but I'm also not atheistic. I feel like I sit in a vague, non-place of belief between the two.

But last night I think I hit on a phrase-- God-perceptive-- that really encapsulates the truth of the type of spiritual relationship I have. But I'm not 100% on this, so please help me iron it out.

To go back to a conversation in another thread, there are quite a few people here--myself included-- who claim deity doesn't speak to them, but yet something must 'speak' to us because we're here, passionately debating spirituality.  I think we often weigh our relationships with deity on a god-bothered scale, and find ourselves lacking in that department.

But here's what I'm thinking: God-bothered seems to be more about feeling compelled by deity. God-perceptive is simply being aware of deity.

For me, being god-perceptive means that I experience the presence of spirit as naturally and constantly as the presence of the other four elements. It's so natural, that at times it's not even a conscious experience, much like breathing. But that means I also fall into the trap of thinking that it isn't spiritual at all, because I think spiritual experience must mean intense, mystical deviations from the norm.

What's really going on is that I feel and experience the element of divinity in the world everyday, enough to know it's a truth, without feeling prompted to action by it. And I've made the false assumption that persuasion is what makes the god. It's as if every time I watched the rain fall, I didn't think it could really be rain because I didn't get the urge to stomp in puddles.  But the urge isn't the rain, the rain is simply itself.

Does that make sense to anyone else?


I understand but find it hard to agree. Because it assumes the existance of 'divintiy' when I can find no evidence for it. This does not negate the experiences of people who claim to be connected with divine beings.  

Then the old problem that no one wants to talk about raises its head, vis : that there *are* 'devine' beings but for some reason, millions of people are not able to access them for reasons nobody is ever too clear about. Why are some people vouchsafed this communion and countless others not?

But if it's only a definition of a feeling or the anthropormorphizing of an idea, I understand better.

I do have 'feelings' and experiences that have no counter-point or explanation in the work-a-day world but for me these just have to do with the incredible complexities of the universe which has so many attributes we can never know , limited as we are by our biology ( sorry for run-on sentence). So I am untroubled about 'spirituality' though I feel it as you do - it's like a part of me such as vision or hearing. For myself, it doesn't need further definition -it just 'is'.  

I am continuously awe struck. And that state of 'awe' is what some might term 'spirituality' or others term 'awareness'.

When I see some things I am dumbstruck by their existance. There are some lovely lines from  L.M. Montgomery :

"...What is the reason that pain like this seems inseparable from perfection? Is it the pain of finality—when we realise that there can be nothing beyond but retrogression?"

...Perhaps... it is the prisoned infinite in us calling out to its kindred infinite as expressed in that visible perfection."

And though that doesn't cover all contingencies and provides no answer, it's a good description of what I feel and the impossibilty of articulating it. And it requires no supra-intelligent planner beyond what is just...there.

I think one must be careful not to confuse their feelings about things with what those things might be. Without it being made manifest,we don't know. If people feel that it is made manifest for them by a deity association, thats fine. But there is no neccessity for it and no indication for their presense that I can determine.

Lana288

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Re: God-Perceptive
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2014, 07:44:44 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;159835
Lately I've been deconstructing what spirituality is to me, throwing a bunch a stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. I've been doing this because the spiritual styling of recon hasn't been working for me, but I knew a conventional UPG-saturated path wouldn't work for me either. The main problem is that I'm not god-bothered, but I'm also not atheistic. I feel like I sit in a vague, non-place of belief between the two.

But last night I think I hit on a phrase-- God-perceptive-- that really encapsulates the truth of the type of spiritual relationship I have. But I'm not 100% on this, so please help me iron it out.

To go back to a conversation in another thread, there are quite a few people here--myself included-- who claim deity doesn't speak to them, but yet something must 'speak' to us because we're here, passionately debating spirituality.  I think we often weigh our relationships with deity on a god-bothered scale, and find ourselves lacking in that department.

But here's what I'm thinking: God-bothered seems to be more about feeling compelled by deity. God-perceptive is simply being aware of deity.

For me, being god-perceptive means that I experience the presence of spirit as naturally and constantly as the presence of the other four elements. It's so natural, that at times it's not even a conscious experience, much like breathing. But that means I also fall into the trap of thinking that it isn't spiritual at all, because I think spiritual experience must mean intense, mystical deviations from the norm.

What's really going on is that I feel and experience the element of divinity in the world everyday, enough to know it's a truth, without feeling prompted to action by it. And I've made the false assumption that persuasion is what makes the god. It's as if every time I watched the rain fall, I didn't think it could really be rain because I didn't get the urge to stomp in puddles.  But the urge isn't the rain, the rain is simply itself.

Does that make sense to anyone else?

 
It does. If I have this right (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), that when one is god-perceptive, a person would just realize that the gods are already around them without having to actually hear/'experience' them beyond everyday existence? Or am I misinterpreting?

Honestly, in a way, that sounds like... some fort of everyday spirituality, or religion for the common person. I like it- it sounds like something more maintainable than constant visions or other phenomena. Like the difference between a sudden torid love affair and a constant, lasting friendship. (This is all assuming I haven't completely misread what you posted, of course)

AineLlewellyn

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Re: God-Perceptive
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2014, 08:16:31 pm »
Quote from: carillion;159846
I think one must be careful not to confuse their feelings about things with what those things might be. Without it being made manifest,we don't know. If people feel that it is made manifest for them by a deity association, thats fine. But there is no neccessity for it and no indication for their presense that I can determine.

 
I try hard to make sure I don't assume that just cause I don't perceive or experience something that I think someone isn't using discernment or capable of critical thought. I find it patronizing to assume otherwise.

We can't know anything about the deities and spirits for certain. If one is looking for 100% certainty, I don't think religion or spirituality is the place to go...

carillion

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Re: God-Perceptive
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2014, 08:51:20 pm »
Quote from: ainellewellyn;159852
I try hard to make sure I don't assume that just cause I don't perceive or experience something that I think someone isn't using discernment or capable of critical thought. I find it patronizing to assume otherwise.

We can't know anything about the deities and spirits for certain. If one is looking for 100% certainty, I don't think religion or spirituality is the place to go...


I totally agree.

Juniperberry

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Re: God-Perceptive
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2014, 01:45:20 am »
Quote from: Tom;159845
I thought about this a bit more and it seems like being god-perceptive would be more like...you can hear the ambient noise around you, but it's really just kinda something you don't play much attention to. However, if you just focus on it a bit, you can make some of it out. Yet for the god-bothered, it's a lot louder and a lot harder to ignore or filter out of your head to focus on something else.

Does match up with what you're trying to say?


Sort of. Though I don't want to say one is better than the other, and I am getting that a bit from your use of inside/outside and GPs needing to focus harder. Though I'm sure it's not intentional. (Also, I owe you an apology for misrepresenting the GB relationship earlier. I never thought you didn't have freewill, just that there was a strong pull to action.)

I'm also going to say that no one is either one or the other, people are probably both, but that one method tends to take precedence in an individual.

But saying that I hear a constant ambient noise works, except that I do constantly pay attention to it in the same way that I do any other part of my environment. It's just so constant and mellow that I never considered it as a Big Deal. Whereas I'd guess GB hear it all the time as well, but occassionally the tempo picks up and they feel like dancing/doing something?  

Maybe I'll explain it better in my other replies. :)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Juniperberry

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Re: God-Perceptive
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2014, 02:51:13 am »
Quote from: carillion;159846
 

And though that doesn't cover all contingencies and provides no answer, it's a good description of what I feel and the impossibilty of articulating it. And it requires no supra-intelligent planner beyond what is just...there.


L.M. Montgomery was the author of one of my favorite books as a kid (too funny, I called you a kindred spirit last night),  so maybe you'll get this:

“Why must people kneel down to pray? If I really wanted to pray I’ll tell you what I'd do. I'd go out into a great big field all alone or in the deep, deep woods and I'd look up into the sky—up—up—up—into that lovely blue sky that looks as if there was no end to its blueness. And then I'd just feel a prayer.” L.M.M

"It has always seemed to me, ever since early childhood, amid all the commonplaces of life, I was very near to a kingdom of ideal beauty. Between it and me hung only a thin veil. I could never draw it quite aside, but sometimes a wind fluttered it and I caught a glimpse of the enchanting realms beyond- only a glimpse- but those glimpses have always made life worthwhile.” L.M.M

I've always perceived that ideal kingdom, but not as a place, or a god, or a religion. And you can't pray to it, unless you just feel a prayer. Because it is the feeling. And it's there, everywhere, waiting to be glimpsed. I think because it just Is, is why I never considered myself communicating with deity before, but, if I look back, I realize that I've always experienced it and always will.

If I could contain it in a being, or an altar or a ritual it would be... it would be nothing.

Quote
I think one must be careful not to confuse their feelings about things with what those things might be. Without it being made manifest,we don't know. If people feel that it is made manifest for them by a deity association, thats fine. But there is no neccessity for it and no indication for their presense that I can determine.

Well, then you actually probably don't relate at all to what I just said. But, having said it was a great frigging help to me.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 02:51:44 am by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

carillion

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Re: God-Perceptive
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2014, 04:00:33 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;159867
L.M. Montgomery was the author of one of my favorite books as a kid (too funny, I called you a kindred spirit last night),  so maybe you'll get this:

“Why must people kneel down to pray? If I really wanted to pray I’ll tell you what I'd do. I'd go out into a great big field all alone or in the deep, deep woods and I'd look up into the sky—up—up—up—into that lovely blue sky that looks as if there was no end to its blueness. And then I'd just feel a prayer.” L.M.M

"It has always seemed to me, ever since early childhood, amid all the commonplaces of life, I was very near to a kingdom of ideal beauty. Between it and me hung only a thin veil. I could never draw it quite aside, but sometimes a wind fluttered it and I caught a glimpse of the enchanting realms beyond- only a glimpse- but those glimpses have always made life worthwhile.” L.M.M

I've always perceived that ideal kingdom, but not as a place, or a god, or a religion. And you can't pray to it, unless you just feel a prayer. Because it is the feeling. And it's there, everywhere, waiting to be glimpsed. I think because it just Is, is why I never considered myself communicating with deity before, but, if I look back, I realize that I've always experienced it and always will.

If I could contain it in a being, or an altar or a ritual it would be... it would be nothing.



Well, then you actually probably don't relate at all to what I just said. But, having said it was a great frigging help to me.  ;)


Oh I can relate. From this and other things you have written, I think we may experience things in much the same way. The difference lies in attribution, or put more simple, I don't :)

If I had to sum it up, I would say I was more pattern seeking than answer seeking for those things that as yet don't provide either answers or signposts to them (at least for me). I wasn't raised in religion and it had no part in my formative years except as something that effects society. In my family it was all about specuation and the abstract, but no answers. I was raised to be curious and to inquire widely on those things which interested me but cautioned against the easiest or most available answer.

I blame my parents entirely, of course. Both artists and daydreamers, what would you expect? But then I never found anything which indicated this was wrong, in fact, just the opposite.

Tom

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Re: God-Perceptive
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2014, 04:37:21 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;159864
Sort of. Though I don't want to say one is better than the other, and I am getting that a bit from your use of inside/outside and GPs needing to focus harder. Though I'm sure it's not intentional. (Also, I owe you an apology for misrepresenting the GB relationship earlier. I never thought you didn't have freewill, just that there was a strong pull to action.)

I'm also going to say that no one is either one or the other, people are probably both, but that one method tends to take precedence in an individual.

But saying that I hear a constant ambient noise works, except that I do constantly pay attention to it in the same way that I do any other part of my environment. It's just so constant and mellow that I never considered it as a Big Deal. Whereas I'd guess GB hear it all the time as well, but occassionally the tempo picks up and they feel like dancing/doing something?  

Maybe I'll explain it better in my other replies. :)

 
Um, from someone who actually often does have difficulty filtering out background noise and can get overwhelmed from too much sensory input, I'm certainly actually not saying that the GB actually have it 'better'. I'm using a metaphor that is perhaps far more familiar to me than other people due to my being neurodivergent, but it's not one that comes with the implication of one being better than the other.

I used the example because to some people, the TV is something they can have on while doing something else while still /aware/ that the TV is on and playing something while there are people who cannot have the TV on if they doing something else because they cannot filter it out of their thinking.

This is literally an example of different wiring in different people.

AineLlewellyn

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Re: God-Perceptive
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2014, 05:09:54 am »
Quote from: Tom;159874
Um, from someone who actually often does have difficulty filtering out background noise and can get overwhelmed from too much sensory input, I'm certainly actually not saying that the GB actually have it 'better'. I'm using a metaphor that is perhaps far more familiar to me than other people due to my being neurodivergent, but it's not one that comes with the implication of one being better than the other.

I used the example because to some people, the TV is something they can have on while doing something else while still /aware/ that the TV is on and playing something while there are people who cannot have the TV on if they doing something else because they cannot filter it out of their thinking.

This is literally an example of different wiring in different people.

 
This is a great example, imo.

Juniperberry

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Re: God-Perceptive
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2014, 09:59:02 am »
Quote from: carillion;159871
Oh I can relate. From this and other things you have written, I think we may experience things in much the same way. The difference lies in attribution, or put more simple, I don't :)

If I had to sum it up, I would say I was more pattern seeking than answer seeking for those things that as yet don't provide either answers or signposts to them (at least for me). I wasn't raised in religion and it had no part in my formative years except as something that effects society. In my family it was all about specuation and the abstract, but no answers. I was raised to be curious and to inquire widely on those things which interested me but cautioned against the easiest or most available answer.

I blame my parents entirely, of course. Both artists and daydreamers, what would you expect? But then I never found anything which indicated this was wrong, in fact, just the opposite.

 

Ah. See, I wasn't raised with religion either, and not on purpose to make me more curious and open-minded or anything. It just wasn't important to my folks.  I learned about God from all around me, all valid, without any real restrictions.  God/spirituality, as I experienced it, was truly everywhere and anywhere and not confined to any specific teaching or religious framework.

I'm wondering now if that plays a part in not feeling god-bothered/spoken to by deity? I'm imaging that someone raised religiously had to filter experience through their teachings, knowing that not all things were valid. They would inevitably learn what to tune into and what to tune out, right? Whereas I was tuned into all channels, all  inclinations about spirituality were valid, and so it just became-- as Tom said-- ambient noise, and I had no need to focus on pulling anything specific out.

Course, that's a gross generalization. But I do think that might be a small aspect of it.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

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Re: God-Perceptive
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2014, 09:59:45 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;159835
Lately I've been deconstructing what spirituality is to me, throwing a bunch a stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. I've been doing this because the spiritual styling of recon hasn't been working for me, but I knew a conventional UPG-saturated path wouldn't work for me either. The main problem is that I'm not god-bothered, but I'm also not atheistic. I feel like I sit in a vague, non-place of belief between the two.

But last night I think I hit on a phrase-- God-perceptive-- that really encapsulates the truth of the type of spiritual relationship I have. But I'm not 100% on this, so please help me iron it out.

To go back to a conversation in another thread, there are quite a few people here--myself included-- who claim deity doesn't speak to them, but yet something must 'speak' to us because we're here, passionately debating spirituality.  I think we often weigh our relationships with deity on a god-bothered scale, and find ourselves lacking in that department.

But here's what I'm thinking: God-bothered seems to be more about feeling compelled by deity. God-perceptive is simply being aware of deity.

For me, being god-perceptive means that I experience the presence of spirit as naturally and constantly as the presence of the other four elements. It's so natural, that at times it's not even a conscious experience, much like breathing. But that means I also fall into the trap of thinking that it isn't spiritual at all, because I think spiritual experience must mean intense, mystical deviations from the norm.

What's really going on is that I feel and experience the element of divinity in the world everyday, enough to know it's a truth, without feeling prompted to action by it. And I've made the false assumption that persuasion is what makes the god. It's as if every time I watched the rain fall, I didn't think it could really be rain because I didn't get the urge to stomp in puddles.  But the urge isn't the rain, the rain is simply itself.

Does that make sense to anyone else?


I don't have a lot to add here, but yes, that absolutely makes sense to me. From top to bottom. Thanks for this.
My views are one that speaks to freedom.
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Tom

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Re: God-Perceptive
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2014, 10:11:15 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;159890
Ah. See, I wasn't raised with religion either, and not on purpose to make me more curious and open-minded or anything. It just wasn't important to my folks.  I learned about God from all around me, all valid, without any real restrictions.  God/spirituality, as I experienced it, was truly everywhere and anywhere and not confined to any specific teaching or religious framework.

I'm wondering now if that plays a part in not feeling god-bothered/spoken to by deity? I'm imaging that someone raised religiously had to filter experience through their teachings, knowing that not all things were valid. They would inevitably learn what to tune into and what to tune out, right? Whereas I was tuned into all channels, all  inclinations about spirituality were valid, and so it just became-- as Tom said-- ambient noise, and I had no need to focus on pulling anything specific out.

Course, that's a gross generalization. But I do think that might be a small aspect of it.

I wasn't raised with religion either, yet I am still in the category of people who are god-bothered. I didn't really learn how to listen from anyone. Instead I was often told that people who believed they were talking to god (the Christian one usually since my father does not think outside the box usually) were people who were silly and foolish or idiots. Or liars who had an agenda.

Yet here I am. Being god bothered and all. With no religious upbringing outside of the mythology and history books I read.

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