The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

So I'm kind of coming out of a time capsule and finding things quite different which is why I asked the question. It was not meant to be a divisive question and it certainly was a sincere question as I've been meaning to take up my studies again but now I'm not so sure.


I've been meaning to take up my studies again but now I'm not so sure.

No, the question stands. I was looking around at other people looking for information as well and it is that component I am interested in, not how to start. And seeing the *seeming* contradiction (s) between between the literature and between different people's experiences, it seemed best to tackle this question first. If a person just asked "where do I start", they run smack up against the problem which I'm bringing up.

Here's an alternate explanation: as people talk about things more, they get better at talking about them.

So our conversations about the nuances of what is Wicca and what might be better served by a different term have gotten better. (There are reasons I use 'initiatory religious witchcraft', after all, even though my trad's practices are quite comfortably in the category that many people would use 'Wicca' for.)

We have developed, with the rise of ready access to the Internet for most people in the US (and elsewhere!) a much broader base of knowledge and discussion for things like interactions with deity.

(The kind of thing that would likely not be broadly published in books, for a variety of reasons, starting with the fact that until the rise of ebooks and self-publishing as an option, there were simply not that many books coming out every year that were widely known or discussed about Pagan topics - a few hundred, maybe, to cover everything from magical practice to ritual ideas to specific concepts like herbs or divination tools or what have you.)

We've also - as a broad series of interlocking and sometimes widely differing communities - gotten better at talking about experiences we don't all share (which is most of them) in ways that make people at least sometimes willing to share highly personal things (like interactions with deities.)

It's certainly not perfect yet, mind you, but I see an awful lot of reasons why there might be the changes you describe, and many of them have entirely reasonable explanations rooted in changes in communication methods, access, and experience having those conversations in general.

Personally, while I know that "where do I start" can be terrifying for some people, I think it, ultimately, gives people a great deal more power, choice, and possibility than being limited to only a few sources. (And, as has been discussed in various places on this forum extensively in the past, sources that talk about *applying* that information to daily life, not just descriptions of worship that requires dozens of priests or an entire city, or architecture that someone just doesn't have in a private home.

Plus, now we've got spaces like this forum and various others where people can say "Hey, where's a good place to start with X?" (I should note that the vast number of hits I get to my Seeking site come from Tumblr, where it's linked in precisely that kind of information resource post.)

I don't recommend Cunningham as a starting place these days - precisely because he's been dead for more than two decades, and the way he uses terms can be confusing for people interacting with the community now. But there's specific things in his books that are still useful, and I don't *disrecommend* him. I just think there are other better places with recent awareness of community starting places that are a better place for someone brand new to start.

Yeah, well, welcome to religion.  We're all probably wrong. :

Hanging this here, because I think it's an interesting and discussion-worthy topic, despite the seeming passive-aggressive agenda of the original post.

First I want to mention, for those who don't have a god-phone or are god-bothered - have you ever tried divination to try to suss out some info on your deities?  I am also in a place where I don't really intuitively feel my gods (except sometimes in powerful ritual), but I do use divination as part of a ritual to communicate with them when I have a particular question or just want to know what I could be doing to please them or further whatever work they're doing.

Now I'd like to unpack my perspective of lore vs. UPG.  First, I think it's important to consider that not all 'lore' is created equal.  Much of what we have was written or recorded through a Christian lens, which to me means it's open to questioning or a great amount of interpretation.  In the Heathen tradition, for example, there's a great deal of question in particular about the nature of Loki, and how much Snorri (a Christian) demonized Him to fit a good vs. evil worldview.  There's a lot of people who's UPG says that Loki's a pretty awesome guy; which is not generally the picture we get from the lore.  For me, who is not god-bothered, part of the 'discernment' I use when checking my divinations is if it makes sense within the lore; because, like Carillion mentions, I just don't have any other checking methods.  There are some deities I honor who just don't have much extant lore (my Patron Nerthus), and for them I must rely on my own divinations, checking them with the UPG of others.

I generally tend to incorporate gnosis that seems to be shared by many, rather than one person's contradictory gnosis; with the understanding that IMO deities are like people in that they can have very different relationships with different people and so that one contradictory person's UPG is not necessarily wrong.  I experience this myself with Hretha, an Anglo-Saxon goddess, whom we have little to no contextual information about.  Many see Her as a warrior deity, or a winter deity that succumbs to the spring not unlike the Celtic Callieach, or even as an Earth Mother; but I personally see Her as the roaring early-spring winds of the prairies.  This is how She came to me in a ritual where I asked to learn about Her nature (through divination, which can sometimes lead to an intuitive sensing), and I place it above all other opinions in my hierarchy of 'accurate UPG', which the acknowledgement that She may only be that for me.

And I think that gets to the heart of it.  For the person experiencing the UPG, it will probably trump both lore and others' UPG in their own religious lives.  But for those who haven't had that experience, or who don't sense the deities at all, the extant lore about that deity is probably going to trump that one person's UPG.  I think it's generally a hierarchy where one's own experiences are placed at the top, and UPG, SPG, and lore are placed at various steps depending on their accuracy as a source.  At least that's how it works for me.

This is an excellent question.  It is a shame your topic was met with such hostility.

Quote from: carillion;159694

I was thinking of this while reading another thread wherein one person felt obligated to apologise for misconstruing the true character of a goddess based on what appeared to be that other person's subjective *experience* of that goddess.

Drama

A Reminder:

Hi, Goddess_Ashtara, While we don't have a problem with reviving old threads here, we do have some guidelines for best practices when doing so. The bit I quoted is illustrative of some of the pitfalls that can come up. The incident Carillion was referring to wasn't 'drama' until she used it (and misrepresented it!) as her reason for starting this thread, which is why many of the responses are hostile. The posts in this thread, if read carefully, do explicate that, which is one of the reasons why we strongly suggest that people read, not just skim or skip, the whole thread they're considering reviving. You're correct that the hostile responses to Carillion's stated motivation overshadowed what could have been an excellent discussion - unfortunately, Carillion, instead of just presenting the discussion topic, made a point of including that motivation, thus making it a part of the discussion. And because she so grossly misrepresented ('lied about' is not too strong a phrase) what had taken place in the thread that inspired her, that was what people responded to. So, as the guidelines for thread-reviving say, it's a really good idea to read the whole thread you're considering reviving. This isn't a formal warning, just a reminder.  No  reply is necessary, but if you have questions or need clarification,  please feel free to contact a member of staff privately. Thanks! Sunflower TC Forum Staff