Author Topic: On Modernization and Standardization—a Greek Perspective (Read 5588 times)

Basquiat · « **on:** September 19, 2014, 05:11:08 am »

Salutations:

I am a newly registered member of the e-Cauldron forum—a rather splendid exemplar of inter-faith communication and dialog, I might say—, and I have an informal questionnaire that I'd like a personal opinion given and whatnot. It will help me on understanding the position of the fellow Greek population on important topics concerning our religion. Please respond according to your honest opinion.

Modernization and Standardization:

Authority

1. What religious organization should be given precedence to regulate and codify certain requirements for the Greek religion in the United States (i.e. an introductory practice)?

2. What book or collection ought to be be elevated to the status of recognized scripture?

3. What do you advise calling modern ecclesiastic congregation houses, and are you of the opinion that worship may be conducted inside a designated building, adjacent to the dedicated temple?

4. How do we successfully transition the use of Sacred Tradition (Gr. Ιερά Παράδοση) into the framework of contemporary society?

5. To what extent do we tolerate the worship of foreign cultus?

6. Are you supportive of the modern attempt at forming a clergy class to educate and lead ritual conduct and preach on the benefit of Hellenism?

Reason and Faith

1. Do you think Greek ought to be made the officiated language of the religion and which variant?

2. Catechism—a viable concept within contemporary practice?

3. What would the supposed clergy wear—modern clothing, or an ancient getup?

More questions will be posted later-onward.

RandallS · « **Reply #1 on:** September 19, 2014, 08:51:04 am »

Quote from: Basquiat;159341

1. What religious organization should be given precedence to regulate and codify certain requirements for the Greek religion in the United States (i.e. an introductory practice)?

None. First, it's a bad idea. Second, it could not happen in the US. The First Amendment prohibits the government from limiting this to one organization, so anyone who wanted to set up a religious organization setting such "standards" could legally do so and there would be nothing any other group that has already done so could do to stop them.

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2. What book or collection ought to be be elevated to the status of recognized scripture?

None. Just as each Hellenic city-state had its version of religion, so should each group in the US. This means each group should be able to decide what works (if any) should be "scripture" (and define what "scripture" means).

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3. What do you advise calling modern ecclesiastic congregation houses, and are you of the opinion that worship may be conducted inside a designated building, adjacent to the dedicated temple?

Again, this is a decision for each group.

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4. How do we successfully transition the use of Sacred Tradition (Gr. Ιερά Παράδοση) into the framework of contemporary society?

I'm not even sure this is actually possible -- depending on exactly what you mean.

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5. To what extent do we tolerate the worship of foreign cultus?

Err, I believe in freedom of religion. This means I have no say in what deities others choose to worship -- nor should I.

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6. Are you supportive of the modern attempt at forming a clergy class to educate and lead ritual conduct and preach on the benefit of Hellenism?

Again, clergy and its function should be up to the individual group. Priests in Hellenic religions traditionally serve the gods, not a group of people.

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1. Do you think Greek ought to be made the officiated language of the religion and which variant?

That should be up to each group.

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2. Catechism—a viable concept within contemporary practice?

It could be. Again, this is is a each group thing.

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3. What would the supposed clergy wear—modern clothing, or an ancient getup?

Again, why not just leave this up to each group and their specific needs.

Basquiat · « **Reply #2 on:** September 19, 2014, 10:31:18 am »

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None. First, it's a bad idea. Second, it could not happen in the US. The First Amendment prohibits the government from limiting this to one organization, so anyone who wanted to set up a religious organization setting such "standards" could legally do so and there would be nothing any other group that has already done so could do to stop them.

I'm afraid you've misinterpreted my question, RandallS. I am not advocating for a government sponsored organization, but for the idealization that we could voluntarily recognize a group vis-à-vis popular enfranchisement, or perhaps form a national advisory conference to which we'd delegate certain privileges and what have you (e.g. International Lutheran Council).

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None. Just as each Hellenic city-state had its version of religion, so should each group in the US. This means each group should be able to decide what works (if any) should be "scripture" (and define what "scripture" means).

Well, maybe I ought to have chosen my diction a bit more carefully, but I have often read that many modern religions share the ideation that each cult had a special sacred text to organize the foundation of the religion. I have found select works to be recurring in citing in Hellenism:

Homeric Hymns by Unknown
Works and Days by Hesiod
Delphic Maxims by Unknown

Why not elect to compile and revise the elected work into a more cohesive piece for study and meditation?

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I'm not even sure this is actually possible -- depending on exactly what you mean.

Yes, forgive me for the absence of an explanation.

I am curious to know how well we can transplant the religious tradition and heritage of ancient Greece into the façade of modern civilization. I'm particularly concerned with how the archaic ritual and pomp of yesteryear will be adapted to fit the scrutiny of the contemporary world whenever the religion is given to prominence.

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Err, I believe in freedom of religion. This means I have no say in what deities others choose to worship -- nor should I.

I believe the sub-forum to be focused on reconstruction: a belief-system entitled to those who practice a quintessentially Greek variant of the religion before the incursion of the Alexandrian era and the following Graeco-Roman era, as well.

I'm not surprised you value freedom of religion, but I am surprised you haven't even a point otherwise.

Nyktelios · « **Reply #3 on:** September 19, 2014, 10:46:00 am »

Quote from: Basquiat;159341

I agree with Randall's answers.

The questions sound as if they are trying to put ancient Greek worship in a modern, Abrahamic context. Ancient Greece did not have a single institution that governed all the cults, there was no Catechism, no text that was scripture, no priestly class. Worship of the gods in ancient Greece was diverse, not one organized "religion" in the monolithic modern sense of the word. Priests were ordinary people who looked after the temple and the offerings given to the deity, they weren't an educated upper class. A lot of these questions are pretty irrelevant to ancient Greek religious traditions.

Melamphoros · « **Reply #4 on:** September 19, 2014, 11:24:57 am »

Quote from: Basquiat;159359

I believe the sub-forum to be focused on reconstruction: a belief-system entitled to those who practice a quintessentially Greek variant of the religion before the incursion of the Alexandrian era and the following Graeco-Roman era, as well.

If by "the sub-forum" you mean the one this thread is in, than you are sadly mistaken. This sub-forum is titled the "Hellenic and Roman Polytheism SIG," not the "Hellenic Reconstructionism SIG." In other words, religious discussions pertaining to Hellenistic and Roman religion are also included here.

Basquiat · « **Reply #5 on:** September 19, 2014, 11:35:59 am »

Quote from: Nyktelios;159361

I agree with Randall's answers.

A lot of these questions are pretty irrelevant to ancient Greek religious traditions.

Yes, they're obviously oriented on how we could attempt to transition from the ancient tradition into a more modern and conforming format. I don't see the harm in considering discussing how practitioners would like the religion to evolve, especially when unifying certain aspects of the movement.

I realize that ancient Greece was a diverse time and place, but we're not living then, and I can imagine it's a dandy idea for the creation a universal calendar, or to maybe form a national board to hash-out a more uniform religion.

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If by "the sub-forum" you mean the one this thread is in, than you are sadly mistaken. This sub-forum is titled the "Hellenic and Roman Polytheism SIG," not the "Hellenic Reconstructionism SIG." In other words, religious discussions pertaining to Hellenistic and Roman religion are also included here.

Sure, my mistake.

Valeria Crowe · « **Reply #6 on:** September 19, 2014, 11:41:52 am »

Quote from: Basquiat;159359

I'm not surprised you value freedom of religion, but I am surprised you haven't even a point otherwise.

Would you mind unpacking a little the phrase "Tolerate the worship of foreign cultus,"?

What do you mean by 'foreign cultus'? Other religions? Other ways of worshipping Hellenic gods? And what form would 'not tolerating them' take? What actions would you take against them?

Melamphoros · « **Reply #7 on:** September 19, 2014, 11:43:31 am »

Quote from: Basquiat;159365

As a side note, could you leave both parts of the quote code (the bits in the brackets) intact when you're quoting someone? In the post I'm quoting has it that you're quoting Nyktelios, but the last bit is from a post from me. It's a small thing, but it helps us track the conversations here much better.

-Melamphoros, TC Board Staff

Darkhawk · « **Reply #8 on:** September 19, 2014, 12:01:20 pm »

Quote from: Basquiat;159365

Yes, they're obviously oriented on how we could attempt to transition from the ancient tradition into a more modern and conforming format.

Popping in from outside - I rather suspect that if a lot of people were interested in scripture and catechism as part of their religion, they would likely have stuck with creedal religions with revealed texts in the first place.

I know very few pagans, reconstructionist or otherwise, who are interested in "conforming" to Christian structure, especially when those structures are actively hostile to the nature of ancient paganisms (such as those two). The subtler forms of assuming-Christianity-is-the-template-for-religion cause enough trouble without adopting such inimical concepts wholesale.

Basquiat · « **Reply #9 on:** September 19, 2014, 12:05:56 pm »

Quote from: Cuthwin Crowe;159366

Would you mind unpacking a little the phrase "Tolerate the worship of foreign cultus,"?

What do you mean by 'foreign cultus'? Other religions? Other ways of worshipping Hellenic gods? And what form would 'not tolerating them' take? What actions would you take against them?

I would be happy to expound on the principle, Mr. Crowe.

A foreign and non-native Greek religion or cult introduced to Greek people who otherwise were unaffiliated with the adoration or veneration of said cult is considered, obviously, foreign.

I personally would not be able to pursue any legal action against them, but since the Greek membership on the e-Cauldron forum is mainly composed of re-constructionist oriented people, I would suspect that they would endorse the ideation that champions keeping the religion essentially Greek; not allowing it to acquire too much foreign influence, per se. It would dilute the authenticity of the religion. It's perfectly fine to include the worship of one or two foreign deities—a host of them signifies trouble a head.

Darkhawk · « **Reply #10 on:** September 19, 2014, 12:16:46 pm »

Quote from: Basquiat;159370

It's perfectly fine to include the worship of one or two foreign deities—a host of them signifies trouble a head.

Yeah, piffle on those furrin gods. Aphrodite, who needs Her?

Ancient polytheisms nicked cool gods whenever they found 'em. Trying to keep things "pure" from "foreign" influences is a modernism.

Valeria Crowe · « **Reply #11 on:** September 19, 2014, 12:19:56 pm »

Quote from: Basquiat;159370

I would be happy to expound on the principle, Mr. Crowe.

I personally would not be able to pursue any legal action against them

Well of bloody course you wouldn't, no one would, you live in a country that enshrines freedom of religion.

Frankly, you're sounding quite xenophobic here, with your almost regretful talk of not being able to take legal action against people worshipping as they will...

It does not come off well at all, and if I'm misreading you, I dare say I'm not the only one to do so, and I would advise you be much more cautious in your writings.

Basquiat · « **Reply #12 on:** September 19, 2014, 12:23:34 pm »

Quote from: Darkhawk;159369

Popping in from outside - I rather suspect that if a lot of people were interested in scripture and catechism as part of their religion, they would likely have stuck with creedal religions with revealed texts in the first place.

I think many people are gravely misunderstanding the point of the thread. It is not to transform the Greek religion into a carbon copy of the Roman Catholic Church. I'm merely asking what fellow Greek people would like to view happen to their religion in the context of the future, and suggesting it might be a swell notion that we ought to adopt a more uniform stance, especially publicly.

I can't fathom why suggesting we adhere to a codified manner of dress, or proposing we constitute a universally recognized religious calendar has apparently gotten everyone flustered. I comprehend fully well that remaining honest to the exact ancient tradition of Greece may be what some want, but I don't view the harm by simply implying we modernize into a slightly more solidified religion.

I'm not demanding we bow to the generic equivalent of the Vatican, but change can't always be viewed with hostility.

Now, I have received only two comments from a Hellenes, but that's it. I would like more from them.

Sarah · « **Reply #13 on:** September 19, 2014, 12:29:28 pm »

Quote from: Basquiat;159374

I'm merely... suggesting it might be a swell notion that we ought to adopt a more uniform stance, especially publicly.

But why?

(I am not Hellenic, but I'm still interested in this)

HeartShadow · « **Reply #14 on:** September 19, 2014, 12:30:22 pm »

Quote from: Basquiat;159374

Some Cauldron history for you -

There's OFTEN discussions of how people should "adopt unified standards" in one place or another. Which always seems to work out to "do it the way I say and shut the hell up about it". Coming in with yet another "we should unify" statement reads as, well, "do it my way."

And if there's one thing that never flies well here, it's the idea that there's a single standard of way to do things. Even people that think your starting ideas are good will argue with the idea of making them a *standard* for anyone outside the group adopting them, because NONE of us want to be told how to believe.

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