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Author Topic: UPG or Myth?  (Read 3524 times)

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UPG or Myth?
« on: September 09, 2014, 12:05:57 pm »
So for those who consider themselves polytheistic in some form or other, is your primary experience of the gods through unverifiable personal gnosis (UPG) or through a familiarity with their myths?

I have a theory that some neopagans today have their primary experiences divorced from myth--they have a UPG experience, and based on that try to identify which deity it was through its attributes--and that these pagans tend to be hard polytheists. Other pagans become familiar with a mythos and, finding a certain affinity for it, become devotees of that pantheon or one or two gods in particular from that pantheon. These folks are more likely to become reconstructionists and, possibly, some are "softer" in their polytheism than the first group.

But since I'm largely pulling these untested ideas out of my ass, I'm curious what others have to say on the subject.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

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Re: UPG or Myth?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2014, 01:32:58 pm »
Quote from: Altair;158486
So for those who consider themselves polytheistic in some form or other, is your primary experience of the gods through unverifiable personal gnosis (UPG) or through a familiarity with their myths?

There are a lot of people here who've had direct experience of the gods, but I don't think that's common. I haven't and I'd be very cautious if I did, knowing how such experiences can be influenced by unconscious personal interpretation.

I'm also cautious about myths. Some symbolise spiritual realities, some are about nature, and some are just folk-tales that have got attached to gods.

For me, all primary religions are basically the same. An ancient Greek who settled in Egypt, Britain, or even India followed the custom of the country. As a native European, I would be rather an alien in a Hindu temple, and we don't even have a Shinto or Shenjiao one round here. Of European pantheons, the Greek was the most resilient: even after being stamped out by force, it has always returned. But the Celtic and Germanic ones seem to have just faded: no-one went round Ireland or Iceland saying "convert to Christianity or else".
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Re: UPG or Myth?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2014, 01:54:34 pm »
Quote from: Altair;158486
So for those who consider themselves polytheistic in some form or other, is your primary experience of the gods through unverifiable personal gnosis (UPG) or through a familiarity with their myths?

I have a theory that some neopagans today have their primary experiences divorced from myth--they have a UPG experience, and based on that try to identify which deity it was through its attributes--and that these pagans tend to be hard polytheists. Other pagans become familiar with a mythos and, finding a certain affinity for it, become devotees of that pantheon or one or two gods in particular from that pantheon. These folks are more likely to become reconstructionists and, possibly, some are "softer" in their polytheism than the first group.

But since I'm largely pulling these untested ideas out of my ass, I'm curious what others have to say on the subject.


For me, it's kind of all of the above? I'll read a myth and be emotionally moved by it. (This doesn't result in an actual deity connection every time! I read a ton of myths--been a myth geek since childhood--and they don't all end up clicking. But it often starts there, for me.

I'll have dreams about the deity--so UPG. I'll have synchronicities--symbols associated with the deity will start popping up everywhere, if I'm first getting to know the deity or if a deity I'm already involved with wants to tell me something. I'll be reading a book about an unrelated topic, and there's a random mention of him or her. I'll be out for a walk, and there's their sacred animal. That sort of thing.
 
Once I've had a few of these initial contacts, I'll try to communicate in prayer and meditation. Some more UPG will arise from the meditation. If it makes basic sense, I figure it's worth a shot and I'll write it down and use it in a future ritual. (Like, an image pops into my mind of the deity in a lavender field, so I'll try lavender oil/incense/etc. next time I'm contacting them and see if I get a positive vibe.)

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Re: UPG or Myth?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2014, 02:05:52 pm »
Quote from: DavidMcCann;158489
There are a lot of people here who've had direct experience of the gods, but I don't think that's common. I haven't and I'd be very cautious if I did, knowing how such experiences can be influenced by unconscious personal interpretation.


I haven't either. I said in another thread that some deity-type-beings got my attention once, but what specifically happened was: I was in a meditative state during a ritual and had a sudden thought of two beings whose myths I had been previously aware of and vaguely familiar with in a context I had not thought of them before. I thought to myself "I can work with these beings I haven't worked with before, and this is how I can do it."

I described it as the deities saying "Hello, I'm here," but basically it was the various things I've filled my head with turning around until they fit together in some kind of sense. I wonder if other pagans ever describe that sort of thing in the terms of a more concrete interaction.
 
To be completely on topic: My knowledge of the beings I deal with comes almost entirely from myths, legends, and folk tales. What isn't directly from myth and legend is from interpretations of myth and legend. Besides my own personal interpretations, I'm an academic article junkie.

I consider myself a hard polytheist, although in certain contexts I can be fluid. For instance, some of the saints I venerate as ancestors I added to my ancestral pantheon (if you will) specifically because they're sometimes syncretized with gods I work with. I think they're independent of the god, but also somehow carrying the same energy, I guess. I also will use images of other deities that are like the ones I work with to represent them. Those are basically the only areas in which I'm "soft", though.

I have one being I work with who I came to through a UPG, but that being is an ancestral spirit and not a deity, so I'm not trying to figure out which one she is based on her attributes, or anything. She could just be something I created in my own imagination, but it works for me, so I'm okay with that. I have had dreams about angelic beings who I tried to identify afterwards, but I usually assume that the reason I dreamed about them is that I read something somewhere that planted a seed at the back of my mind.
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Re: UPG or Myth?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2014, 02:27:10 pm »
Quote from: Altair;158486
So for those who consider themselves polytheistic in some form or other, is your primary experience of the gods through unverifiable personal gnosis (UPG) or through a familiarity with their myths?

I have a theory that some neopagans today have their primary experiences divorced from myth--they have a UPG experience, and based on that try to identify which deity it was through its attributes--and that these pagans tend to be hard polytheists. Other pagans become familiar with a mythos and, finding a certain affinity for it, become devotees of that pantheon or one or two gods in particular from that pantheon. These folks are more likely to become reconstructionists and, possibly, some are "softer" in their polytheism than the first group.

But since I'm largely pulling these untested ideas out of my ass, I'm curious what others have to say on the subject.

Depends which deity. I've had various experiences. I was already familiar with Irish mythology before I became a Gaelic polytheist, and you may be right that that's what led to my sort-of-reconstructionist approach. But my patroness (for want of a better word,  that I'm now trying to find) is a deity that I was vaguely familiar with but not interested in, until she came crashing in through direct experience. (There are only a few myths about her, anyway.) Other deities that I have contact with, I sought out after learning about them through myth. And then there was one that turned up in a dream, and left me with nothing to work with, when it came to finding out who she was, until one day I came across a name and realised that was her.

Interesting question to explore!
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Re: UPG or Myth?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2014, 02:51:32 pm »
Quote from: Altair;158486
So for those who consider themselves polytheistic in some form or other, is your primary experience of the gods through unverifiable personal gnosis (UPG) or through a familiarity with their myths?

I have a theory that some neopagans today have their primary experiences divorced from myth--they have a UPG experience, and based on that try to identify which deity it was through its attributes--and that these pagans tend to be hard polytheists. Other pagans become familiar with a mythos and, finding a certain affinity for it, become devotees of that pantheon or one or two gods in particular from that pantheon. These folks are more likely to become reconstructionists and, possibly, some are "softer" in their polytheism than the first group.

But since I'm largely pulling these untested ideas out of my ass, I'm curious what others have to say on the subject.

I'd be the second group! Heh. I became familiar with the history of the Ancient Egyptians, then later took heavy interest in the religious aspects. That led to me finding a connection with Djehuty. (Make no mistake though, I went through a couple of gods first. Each passing me off to the next.)

Now, I'm a pretty soft polytheist and reconstruction-y.. ish. I'm not eclectic or neopagan, but I'm totally not full blown reconstructionist. It's more like a revivalist approach (when I play in the religious sand, of course, life allowing).
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Re: UPG or Myth?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2014, 03:08:02 pm »
Quote from: Naomi J;158493
Depends which deity...


I'd have to say that for me too it is dependent on the deity.  The two deities that I've worked with, Brighid and Hekate, are on completely different ends of the spectrum here.  With Hekate, there is almost no UPG involved and my work is 99.9% lore-based.  With Brighid however, it seems as more of a glancing nod at the lore, but UPG makes up the bulk of my understanding of Her.  Lookig at the two though, this makes sense because Brighid doesn't have much lore, particularly for being such a popular goddess.  Hekate on the other hand, has quite a bit of lore and also shows up in the PGM and Chaldean Oracles.  Maybe it's a need based thing?  Like with my example, Hekate has more than enough lore to work with, while Brighid doesn't, so Her's is supplemented with a healthy dose of UPG.

Refering back to the influence on soft versus hard polytheism based on this, I don't know that I'd be a good reflection of the polarity.  For the most part, I believe that the gods are individual entities, but with Brighid I do make an exception.  I believe that all of those Brigs scattered throughout Europe are Brighid, so my polytheism is less firm where She is concerned.  Hekate, is Hekate, is Hekate though.  So I think I'm the opposite of what your thoughts are there.

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Re: UPG or Myth?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2014, 03:33:04 pm »
Quote from: Altair;158486
So for those who consider themselves polytheistic in some form or other, is your primary experience of the gods through unverifiable personal gnosis (UPG) or through a familiarity with their myths?


 
Do you mean primary as 'main' or primary as 'early'?
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Re: UPG or Myth?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2014, 03:55:10 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;158501
Do you mean primary as 'main' or primary as 'early'?


Good question. I suppose I meant "main", though I admit I'd conflated a bit of "early" in there too--as if one's early experiences are formative/definitive and would necessarily become the main. Which isn't necessarily the case.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

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Re: UPG or Myth?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2014, 05:06:24 pm »
Quote from: Altair;158502
Good question. I suppose I meant "main", though I admit I'd conflated a bit of "early" in there too--as if one's early experiences are formative/definitive and would necessarily become the main. Which isn't necessarily the case.


When I think about it, early and main are pretty different in my experience--if I had to generalize, I'd say the deities tend to influence the outer world a lot when first contacting me, but once the connection is firmed up a bit, they're more a voice in my head or an intuition that $thing I'm doing is pleasing or displeasing to them.

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Re: UPG or Myth?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2014, 06:04:50 pm »
Quote from: Altair;158486
So for those who consider themselves polytheistic in some form or other, is your primary experience of the gods through unverifiable personal gnosis (UPG) or through a familiarity with their myths?

I have a theory that some neopagans today have their primary experiences divorced from myth--they have a UPG experience, and based on that try to identify which deity it was through its attributes--and that these pagans tend to be hard polytheists.


I think this would best describe my early experience. It was definitely much more about what I was experiencing internally and finding deities that fit that.


Quote
Other pagans become familiar with a mythos and, finding a certain affinity for it, become devotees of that pantheon or one or two gods in particular from that pantheon. These folks are more likely to become reconstructionists and, possibly, some are "softer" in their polytheism than the first group.


This would best describe my main experience with deity (until recently). I wanted to see what sort of experiences I could have with externally recognized spirituality.

It's more of a middle ground now, where my center is my internal truth, but I also really enjoy experiences derived from mythology. I don't know that I've ever been a hard polytheist, though. Myth is like reading a great book that touches on larger themes that have some deeper meaning to me, which becomes a truth in itself. What that hardness or softness of that is really isn't that important anymore.
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Re: UPG or Myth?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2014, 06:15:06 pm »
Quote from: Altair;158486
So for those who consider themselves polytheistic in some form or other, is your primary experience of the gods through unverifiable personal gnosis (UPG) or through a familiarity with their myths?

I have a theory that some neopagans today have their primary experiences divorced from myth--they have a UPG experience, and based on that try to identify which deity it was through its attributes--and that these pagans tend to be hard polytheists. Other pagans become familiar with a mythos and, finding a certain affinity for it, become devotees of that pantheon or one or two gods in particular from that pantheon. These folks are more likely to become reconstructionists and, possibly, some are "softer" in their polytheism than the first group.

But since I'm largely pulling these untested ideas out of my ass, I'm curious what others have to say on the subject.

 
It's...kinda both for me? Most of the deities I work with are ones I've heard of prior to dealing with them in some form, but I won't actually start working with them until they somehow get into my life. Though honestly, I don't remember precisely how some of them entered my life. I know I wasn't entirely familiar with my current patron's mythology very much before I started having personal experience of him, but I had heard of him and the one central story he's mentioned as being in.

However, he still appeared in my life with no idea who he was until some months after. I had a vague interest in him before that, but did not actually pursue anything.

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Re: UPG or Myth?
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2014, 07:10:28 pm »
Quote from: Altair;158486
is your primary experience of the gods through unverifiable personal gnosis (UPG) or through a familiarity with their myths?


Nowadays, I think of it as a flow of a story. Gnosis is becoming closer (to me) to inspiration, and whether one is inspired by an already-established mythology, or inspired by some nascent collage of life experiences that doesn't have a structure until it's made to fit an already-established mythology (which might very well have influenced said life experiences)...an experience of the gods is an experience of the gods.

At the same time, I can see where inspiration and gnosis-as-in-spiritual-experience isn't the same thing. Like, I love Freya. I love her stories. I think she's awesome. Get into devotionals, though, and I don't even get crickets back. So, in that case, it was primarily via familiarity with the myths, but it wasn't...I don't want to say "more than that" because appreciation for the story can be profoundly significant and complete in its own right.
 
I suppose it could then be a feedback loop. Knowledge of mythology deepens appreciation, expands a symbolic vocabulary for significant concepts--whether it inspires gnosis or anchors/articulates it is difficult (and maybe even unnecessary) to peg, because it's a process.
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Re: UPG or Myth?
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2014, 07:30:38 pm »
Quote from: Altair;158486
So for those who consider themselves polytheistic in some form or other, is your primary experience of the gods through unverifiable personal gnosis (UPG) or through a familiarity with their myths?

 
I suspect I confuse your data.

I'm a polytheist, but not a reconstructionist in my actual practice (my tradition has tended toward deities in the Greek/Roman/Egyptian syncretic mode, the deities I work with personally are English in some form (Decidedly not Celtic. Possibly Anglo-Saxon.)

I began with my father (who was an expert in ancient Greek theatre) telling me myths from before I can remember - when we were walking the dog, or walking me to school, or well, walking me anywhere, he'd retell the myths, starting with Chronos and Rhea, working through to the Illiad and the Odyssey. (We'd often then pause for retelling of Bram Stoker's Dracula and bits of H.P. Lovecraft.) And then he'd start again, so we'd get through a cycle about every 6-9 months, depending.

(And because he was a theatre specialist, I also grew up on what the dramatists did with those myths, and why that was interesting.)

Through my childhood, I was basically henotheist: an active practicing Christian (Epsicopalian and then Catholic), but cheerfully agreeable that the Greek gods existed (and if them, why not the Egyptian ones, and the Norse ones, and so on.) In late high school, I learned to read Attic and koine Greek, and some Latin, so got to do a bit of looking at cultural texts.

When I started looking at Paganism, I found myself in a group (and tradition) that worked with specific deities (more than two, in our case) at group rituals, and that also encouraged developing personal devotions to or connections with deities on our own, with lots of discussions about different ways that might happen.

The night before the first meditation in training that happened with that, I had One Of Those Dreams - something incredibly meaningful and powerful and obviously important, but very hard to do research from (I have a lot of images, a spray of flowers, some smells, but nothing in the way of concrete names, even 12 years later.)

The meditation in class brought me more certainty that the dream was really important, and I've done more ritual since, but it fundamentally isn't a connection I could build by reading or research, because there's very little material to work from.

(I am, these days, pretty sure that M'Lady is a deity of some body of water in England, and that her consort is likewise a deity of place, but tracking down *which* place is hard.)

I've also, through community practice when in Minnesota (which has a large and active public ritual community compared to most places) been to rituals with a number of other deities being honoured, and a wide range of reactions to that, but mostly all in the "this is a real being, and I will be respectful and polite" category, rather than "I am at this ritual because Story."
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Re: UPG or Myth?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2014, 10:09:23 am »
All these answers are great, guys; thanks for taking the time to share the info. Based on your input, I think my theory needs further revision/consideration, as the picture seems somewhat more complex than my attempt at oversimplification.

But I wanted to note this in particular:

Quote from: Faemon;158520

I suppose it could then be a feedback loop. Knowledge of mythology deepens appreciation, expands a symbolic vocabulary for significant concepts--whether it inspires gnosis or anchors/articulates it is difficult (and maybe even unnecessary) to peg, because it's a process.

 
Your whole reply struck a chord in me, Faemon, but this last bit in particular. I think this point about the symbolic vocabulary myth gives us is key to understanding its power.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

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