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Author Topic: Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)  (Read 6232 times)

Redfaery

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Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)
« on: September 03, 2014, 08:54:29 am »
So a reply that Jake posted to me in this thread got me thinking. What if a deity showed up and demanded that you work with it? No real options given. Just "work with me."

I've honestly never had an ultimatum, but thanks to pers response, I've realized that I have no boundaries in my head and am incapable of giving consent to gods. I am essentially Sarasvati-sama's spiritual dependent. (When I had this realization, she seemed somewhat amused. "Of course you can't make these decisions. That's what I'm here for, sweetie.")

Loki is a case in point. When he first showed up, he made lots of mischief, but Sarasvati decided he could stay. So he did. But he comes and goes. Nonetheless, when he shows up, I have to stop and pay attention to him, or his pranks get wilder and wilder.

Now, I've certainly had Sarasvati-sama evict "guests" who were unwanted or who proved to be hostile. I trust her fully. This is really the only condition of our relationship. I must trust her as I trust my own mother. She is worthy of it, and she has repaid me for it many times.

But the question remains: what does one do when a deity shows up and says "work with me" when you hadn't planned on it? Is it always just as simple as saying, "no thanks?" What do you do if they don't take that "no" as an answer?
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Gilbride

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Re: Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2014, 09:15:56 am »
Quote from: Redfaery;158028
What if a deity showed up and demanded that you work with it? No real options given. Just "work with me."


You're going to get a range of opinions on this one, but it's quite common in cultures that take spirits seriously. The deity messes with the person's life until the person agrees to work with it.

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Re: Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2014, 09:27:05 am »
Quote from: Redfaery;158028
So a reply that Jake posted to me in this thread got me thinking. What if a deity showed up and demanded that you work with it? No real options given. Just "work with me."


I would say a very firm NO to any deity that approached me in that way. Consent is essential, and any deity that won't respect it does not get attention from me.

But that does create a paradox, because if they won't take no for an answer, and I won't give it... Erk. I'm clear that I wouldn't consent to that, though, one way or another.
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Re: Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2014, 09:46:25 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;158031
I would say a very firm NO to any deity that approached me in that way. Consent is essential, and any deity that won't respect it does not get attention from me.

But that does create a paradox, because if they won't take no for an answer, and I won't give it... Erk. I'm clear that I wouldn't consent to that, though, one way or another.

 
I agree with this 100%. I've had deities (of a sort) get my attention before. It seemed more like they were saying a quick "hello, I'm right here!" rather than "work with me," but I definitely responded with the thought "should I try working with them?" After researching up on them a bit, I ultimately did make the decision to jump in.

If I ever felt like a deity was demanding my attention and I didn't want to give it, I would definitely call in other beings I felt like I could trust to make it go away. I figure with their power and your power together, the unwanted deity doesn't stand a chance.
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Jenett

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Re: Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2014, 09:59:13 am »
Quote from: Redfaery;158028

But the question remains: what does one do when a deity shows up and says "work with me" when you hadn't planned on it? Is it always just as simple as saying, "no thanks?" What do you do if they don't take that "no" as an answer?

 
In my training, there were a couple of people who had issues along these lines.

1) Is this a being you *want* to work with? Sometimes entities are very demanding, but it's the demands or the form of the demands or the implications of the demands that are the problem.

But in general, at this stage, "What is it you want from me, exactly" is not a bad place to start (you might decide you are up for that specific thing, or you might be able to negotiate boundaries you're okay with, or whatever.)

2) If you don't wish to work with an entity at all, then what you do depends somewhat on cultural stuff for you and for that entity, but generally being really clear about your 'no' is a good place to start.

But this is also a place where someone may need to consult with an experienced and well-grounded devotee of that deity or someone who can otherwise help with the negotiation part.

There are consequences for saying no - sort of like there could be consequences for saying 'no' to a romantic relationship to someone in your social circle, or someone taking an interest in your work and angling for you to get a promotion you maybe don't want, or something like that. Usually these consequences are not fatal, but they may not be pleasant.

Another option, though more complicated, is developing a relationship with a different deity, and asking them to intervene. There's a long history of this in various cultures, and again, there can be consquences.

3) If you want to work with an entity, but they are not respecting boundaries.

One relatively common one I've seen is an entity who wants to chime in *all* the time, in ways that are disruptive to someone's ability to work, sleep, get other daily function stuff done. This is not cool.

One useful boundary here is to do something like "It is not okay for you to push at me at work/when I am doing other things. However, I will make time [every day/every week/whatver] that is focused on you, so I can give you my full attention." (Sometimes this is ritual, sometimes this is meditation, sometimes this is just "It's fine to bug me in the two hours before I go to bed")

I generally suggest negotiating with a trial period for a month or two rather than making long-term specific promises about time/duration/frequency/etc. because your life can change, you may find the first thing you try isn't the right fit, etc.

4) Fundamentally, could you trust any deity who *didn't* respect a no?

One might, in some cultural contexts, have to work with them anyway (say if a particular deity was closely associated with where you live, or your profession), but most of those don't apply to modern US culture (and maybe not modern other-places culture either: we have a degree of mobility and freedom of choice that was much less common in the ancient world, and there are lots of ways that plays out in this kind of work.
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Redfaery

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Re: Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 10:29:47 am »
Quote from: Gilbride;158029
You're going to get a range of opinions on this one, but it's quite common in cultures that take spirits seriously. The deity messes with the person's life until the person agrees to work with it.

 
This is kind of where I am, though I have a problem with the word choice, to be honest. I know plenty of polytheists who take their gods and spirits seriously, but who also feel comfortable saying "no" when someone shows up uninvited.

Sometimes I feel like after the JCI model of the omni-omni-omni god is rejected, the idea that a god can still be "more" than a human is able to fully comprehend gets chucked out as well, without even really being examined. The idea that deities might not be omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent gets tossed along with all the problems it creates. Yet the notion that deities are more powerful than humans, that they themselves are aware of this, and that sometimes a deity might want this to be acknowledged by someone who wasn't planning to do so....that seems to create resistance that I find puzzling.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Redfaery

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Re: Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2014, 10:54:19 am »
Quote from: Jenett;158033
In my training, there were a couple of people who had issues along these lines.

 
I should point out that I believe I am asking these questions because I realized that for some reason, I am unable to set boundaries with deities and spirits, or even close my head. Simply unable. Can't do it. Not gonna happen. It's just how I was made. I'm sure someone could do some energy work on me and fix it, but I don't want that, because I'm thinking it would probably alter me in other ways I'm not comfortable with.

So it's like there's a neon WELCOME sign that's flashing 24/7 above my head. I can't turn it off, and I don't want to pull the plug on it, because the wires are hooked up to other things that I know I need... It also seems built into me that I can't say no to a god. I'm not allowed; it's not my place.

I tell people these things, and the discomfort and even disgust in their responses actually makes me feel ashamed. I've been told about the importance of consent and boundaries, as if I related to the gods like they were jealous exes. That's not what's going on in my life.

I hope I don't offend people too badly with this post, though I'm sure I'll step on someone's toes....it's just how I feel personally. So take it with a grain of salt. Or hell...the contents of a couple of salt mines.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Jenett

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Re: Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2014, 12:41:42 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;158036
I should point out that I believe I am asking these questions because I realized that for some reason, I am unable to set boundaries with deities and spirits, or even close my head. Simply unable. Can't do it. Not gonna happen. It's just how I was made. I'm sure someone could do some energy work on me and fix it, but I don't want that, because I'm thinking it would probably alter me in other ways I'm not comfortable with.


I know someone who felt like you did at one point (who was a student in the group I was an initiate with, and who I helped with some of this.)

Being *that* open-headed was tremendously disruptive to her life. To her ability to work a day job. To her ability to be a good friend, housemate, romantic partner, all the kinds of relationships that humans have with humans. To her ability to take care of her pets, sometimes.  

When she started putting boundaries in place, things got a lot better for her. And for everyone else who had to deal with her (because some of the "The Gods are insisting I do X" can become exceedingly abusive for other people in regular contact with that person, if it's handled badly. I have strong feelings about this, having been non-consentually enmeshed in it a couple of times.)

What worked for her was setting clear boundaries about *time* of contact, making regular space in her life for trance/ritual/etc. that allowed for contact in a way that was more predictable for her, and the people who worked with her and shared their lives with her. It actually deepened her connections with the deities and other beings she wanted to be in contact with, while still leaving her able to negotiate boundaries with beings she didn't have the deepest connection with or commitment too.

There are two other possible dangers.

1) It's really easy to lose checks and balances without external feedback. In other words, heavily open-headed people sometimes get all this input, overwhelming amounts of it, but they can't filter out the "This is a Big Important thing" from "Hey, maybe today I'd like chocolate chip ice cream, not chocolate" (i.e. minor preference stuff.)

The ideal advice here is to find people who know you in the physical world (because they will see bits of data that no one's going to see online, like your body language) and ask them to do checks and balances with you. They don't need to be Pagan, though obviously it helps if they're open to your experiences, but even a good friend who just wants you to be happy and well can give a lot of perspective and balance.

2) There are beings out there who are not who they say they are. And who do not have your best interests at heart.

Even if many of the contacts you - or anyone very open-headed - get are positive (just like many of the interactions I have at work are positive) that doesn't mean there aren't creeps and jerks and abusive people out there. You don't want to open yourself up to that, right?

The usual advice here is to do some checking on who's contacting you, not committing to anything other than light contact until you've got a track record to build in (which may include learning more about a being, talking to people who particular honour/focus on/work with that being or that patheon.)

Just like you might be pleasant to someone at school or work, but not hand them the keys to your house or car, really. Boundaries are healthy.

Along with this, instituting a regular psychic hygiene practice (which will help encourage more of the better kinds of contact, and offer some protection from the ickier contacts), and generally working on having healthy boundaries in all areas of a person's life will also help a lot.
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Re: Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2014, 01:00:46 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;158034
Yet the notion that deities are more powerful than humans, that they themselves are aware of this, and that sometimes a deity might want this to be acknowledged by someone who wasn't planning to do so....that seems to create resistance that I find puzzling.

 
Yeah, this is why Buddhists say that desire is the root of suffering and that gods are not exempt from the bonds thereof, really.  Gods may want all kinds of things, and may be sad when they don't get 'em, just like the rest of us.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Redfaery

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Re: Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2014, 01:04:37 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;158043
I know someone who felt like you did at one point (who was a student in the group I was an initiate with, and who I helped with some of this.)

Being *that* open-headed was tremendously disruptive to her life. To her ability to work a day job. To her ability to be a good friend, housemate, romantic partner, all the kinds of relationships that humans have with humans. To her ability to take care of her pets, sometimes.  

When she started putting boundaries in place, things got a lot better for her. And for everyone else who had to deal with her (because some of the "The Gods are insisting I do X" can become exceedingly abusive for other people in regular contact with that person, if it's handled badly. I have strong feelings about this, having been non-consentually enmeshed in it a couple of times.)

What worked for her was setting clear boundaries about *time* of contact, making regular space in her life for trance/ritual/etc. that allowed for contact in a way that was more predictable for her, and the people who worked with her and shared their lives with her. It actually deepened her connections with the deities and other beings she wanted to be in contact with, while still leaving her able to negotiate boundaries with beings she didn't have the deepest connection with or commitment

:( I think all of this is down to me not communicating what's actually going on in my head. I'm wide open and do sometimes get randomly bothered. But there are 2 levels to the bothering: outside and inside.

Sarasvati is the only entity allowed "inside." It's an agreement we have. However, just about anything can come see me "outside." It's like the difference between talking to a guest in the den and letting them into the bedroom.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Redfaery

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Re: Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2014, 01:08:55 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;158046
Sarasvati is the only entity allowed "inside." It's an agreement we have. However, just about anything can come see me "outside." It's like the difference between talking to a guest in the den and letting them into the bedroom.

Hmm....and this is a pretty good description of a boundary. I am a fucking idiot.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

stephyjh

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Re: Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2014, 01:16:52 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;158047
Hmm....and this is a pretty good description of a boundary. I am a fucking idiot.

 
No, you're not. You just have a blind spot about your own right to have boundaries. You've mentioned having problems with boundary-setting and boundary-maintaining with humans because past trauma plus Asperger's. It makes sense that you'd have a hard time recognizing your own established boundaries in non-human relationships. Don't beat yourself up too badly over it.
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That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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Re: Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2014, 02:21:12 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;158048
No, you're not. You just have a blind spot about your own right to have boundaries. You've mentioned having problems with boundary-setting and boundary-maintaining with humans because past trauma plus Asperger's. It makes sense that you'd have a hard time recognizing your own established boundaries in non-human relationships. Don't beat yourself up too badly over it.

Yeah, sounds like you've got some clear boundaries despite your very open-headedness. It can be tough to see that when you see things differently, or have trouble with certain concepts, though.
"We're all stories, in the end. Make it a good one, eh?"
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Re: Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2014, 12:41:40 am »
Quote from: Redfaery;158047
.

(no particular significance to the quote)

I haven't been in that situation, thankfully, but I don't know what I'd do if I was. If it was a deity I wanted to work with that wasn't respecting boundaries, I'd probably try to carrot-and-stick it; offerings and meditation at times when communication would be good, doing everything to ignore it (and maybe even be annoying to it) any other time. (this is, of course, after clearly conveying my preference)

If I just didn't want to interact with it, I mean, there's warding and stuff, but I don't know how tough the given god will be. It's probably more tough than I am. That said, they probably wouldn't want a disloyal, annoyed subject, so it might be a matter of sticking it out.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 12:44:55 am by Scales »

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Re: Work with me or else...(for the godbothered)
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2014, 06:42:14 am »
Quote from: Redfaery;158028
What if a deity showed up and demanded that you work with it? No real options given. Just "work with me."

It kinda depends on the form it's taking. But even that, I think, is just an issue of format and proper time and space. If a god tells you to jump, you say "how high?" Myth, especially Greek myth, is replete with morality tales of people who refuse the gods and suffer for their hubris. Not to downplay your own feelings or your free will, though; I hope you do not take this as an attack as such. I just take the gods and even lesser spirits very seriously, and I would look grievously on rejecting the presence of one that wants their presence known or acknowledged.

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