collapse

* Recent Posts

"Christ Is King" by Altair
[Today at 01:09:34 am]


Re: Cill Shift Schedule by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 11:04:57 pm]


Re: Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 11:21:37 pm]


Re: Spring Has Sprung! 2024 Edition by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 10:24:10 pm]


Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by Altair
[March 21, 2024, 02:52:34 pm]

Author Topic: What does 'Celt' feel like?  (Read 8700 times)

carillion

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 664
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
What does 'Celt' feel like?
« on: August 29, 2014, 06:04:29 pm »
I have read many times that people feel drawn to things Celtic.

I've just spend a mind-numbing few days exploring the modern theories of the origins and spread of the 'Celtic' peoples/culture.

One of the first considerations is time periods as what are seen as markers of  the Celtic culture vary depending on what time period one is referencing.

Wading through the genetic studies is downright confusing. Some findings do seem more robust than others such as the Irish genetic markers being predominately Iberian (specifically Basque) rather than from central or northern Europe.  But these days pretty much all bets are off as historians, geneticists, linguists, archeologists,  etc., etc. all have their theories and they are sticking to them.

The definition or description of the Term 'Celt' seems to change yearly if not monthly.

So what does it mean to 'feel drawn to the Celts'?  What aspects of this as yet ill-defined group are being referenced?

Earthworm

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2014
  • Posts: 28
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2014, 06:56:54 pm »
Quote from: carillion;157607

So what does it mean to 'feel drawn to the Celts'?  What aspects of this as yet ill-defined group are being referenced?


I've never experienced anyone saying that they "feel drawn to the Celts" before, but I imagine, based on what you've said, that those statements may be referring to a Yeatsian, romantic depiction of the Celts. I'm thinking specifically of his description of the poet who comes to visit him/the narrator in The Celtic Twilight, whose poems are "the very inmost voice of Celtic sadness, and of Celtic longing for infinite things the world has never seen". In a footnote to the poet anecdote, the author does say that rather than "Celtic sadness", the poet's sadness is common to "all peoples who preserve the moods of the ancient world", regardless of race.

I think that the sense of longing and mistiness and mysteries about to be revealed when said mists part appeals to people. I think that maybe this sense developed because so much of the folklore we have from countries considered Celtic centers around journeys to and from Faerieland and encounters with supernatural beings, and gives the impression that the ancient inhabitants of those places were always on the edge of the worlds. I think that people are drawn to the liminality they perceive as connected to a particular people group.

In referring to countries as Celtic, I may have missed your point by a lot. I think my words are largely influenced by the Celtic Revival and works by various Victorians like Yeats, and I think it is the Celtic Revival concept of Celts that is probably referred to when people say they are "drawn to the Celts".
"A driving thirst for knowledge is the forerunner of wisdom." -Robert Cochrane

NightQueen

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2014
  • Posts: 136
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2014, 08:44:53 pm »
Quote from: carillion;157607
I have read many times that people feel drawn to things Celtic.

I've just spend a mind-numbing few days exploring the modern theories of the origins and spread of the 'Celtic' peoples/culture.

One of the first considerations is time periods as what are seen as markers of  the Celtic culture vary depending on what time period one is referencing.

Wading through the genetic studies is downright confusing. Some findings do seem more robust than others such as the Irish genetic markers being predominately Iberian (specifically Basque) rather than from central or northern Europe.  But these days pretty much all bets are off as historians, geneticists, linguists, archeologists,  etc., etc. all have their theories and they are sticking to them.

The definition or description of the Term 'Celt' seems to change yearly if not monthly.

So what does it mean to 'feel drawn to the Celts'?  What aspects of this as yet ill-defined group are being referenced?


I do think there is this odd tendency by both historians and laypeople to paint the Celts as this homogeneous group, when in all probability they were not.  We are talking about peoples living over a really wide area.

That being said, I do feel to drawn to Celtic culture.  I feel drawn to Celtic art, music and mythology.  I find all the history extremely interesting, but at the end of the day I don't think it really matters that perhaps that the term Celtic isn't entirely accurate when it comes to describing what I am drawn to-a rose by any other name and all that jazz.  I'm also not recon by any stretch so, perhaps that has something to do with my feelings on the subject.

carillion

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 664
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2014, 08:52:20 pm »
Quote from: NightQueen;157627
I do think there is this odd tendency by both historians and laypeople to paint the Celts as this homogeneous group, when in all probability they were not.  We are talking about peoples living over a really wide area.

That being said, I do feel to drawn to Celtic culture.  I feel drawn to Celtic art, music and mythology.  I find all the history extremely interesting, but at the end of the day I don't think it really matters that perhaps that the term Celtic isn't entirely accurate when it comes to describing what I am drawn to-a rose by any other name and all that jazz.  I'm also not recon by any stretch so, perhaps that has something to do with my feelings on the subject.



I was just about to quote what you wrote on another thread so I'm glad you dropped in:)

I guess what I mean is what kind or part of 'Celtic culture' as the Celts by all accounts describe very different groups in various parts of Europe with accompanying differences in mythology, art and music.

carillion

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 664
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2014, 09:02:49 pm »
Quote from: Earthworm;157613
I've never experienced anyone saying that they "feel drawn to the Celts" before, but I imagine, based on what you've said, that those statements may be referring to a Yeatsian, romantic depiction of the Celts. I'm thinking specifically of his description of the poet who comes to visit him/the narrator in The Celtic Twilight, whose poems are "the very inmost voice of Celtic sadness, and of Celtic longing for infinite things the world has never seen". In a footnote to the poet anecdote, the author does say that rather than "Celtic sadness", the poet's sadness is common to "all peoples who preserve the moods of the ancient world", regardless of race.

I think that the sense of longing and mistiness and mysteries about to be revealed when said mists part appeals to people. I think that maybe this sense developed because so much of the folklore we have from countries considered Celtic centers around journeys to and from Faerieland and encounters with supernatural beings, and gives the impression that the ancient inhabitants of those places were always on the edge of the worlds. I think that people are drawn to the liminality they perceive as connected to a particular people group.

In referring to countries as Celtic, I may have missed your point by a lot. I think my words are largely influenced by the Celtic Revival and works by various Victorians like Yeats, and I think it is the Celtic Revival concept of Celts that is probably referred to when people say they are "drawn to the Celts".

 

What a lovely way to describe this! Yes, I understand the big and small 'R' romantic leanings. One can see that in poems and books about deserts, oceans, countries and ancient civilizations long gone.

What interests me is what do people actually reference when they use the term 'Celt'.

NightQueen

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2014
  • Posts: 136
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2014, 09:46:57 pm »
Quote from: carillion;157629
I was just about to quote what you wrote on another thread so I'm glad you dropped in:)

I guess what I mean is what kind or part of 'Celtic culture' as the Celts by all accounts describe very different groups in various parts of Europe with accompanying differences in mythology, art and music.

 
To be honest the mythology of all the countries typically described at "Celtic" interest me.  I find both their similarities and differences interesting.  As for art and music, I think maybe "Celtic Style" might be a better term (especially since I also appreciate modern art and music with a "Celtic" flare) .  There are certainly some similarities in art and music between those various groups that's what lead to those people to be grouped together along with language.

I think Earthworm pretty much hit the nail on the head when she spoke of the Celtic Revival. What most people (myself included) are probably mean when they say "Celtic" is the "Celtic Revival" and everything that came out of it.

I also think for a lot of people (especially in the US) when they say Celtic they actually mean Irish and/or (less often) British.  And like I said, I'm not trying to reconstruct any Iron Age religion so, it matters less to me if the term is 100% correct.  It's interesting discussion to have on an academic level, but doesn't really mean anything to me on a gut level where my appreciation of that art, music and mythology comes from.  If that makes any sense? The term "Celtic" works as a short hand, because I think most people at least have an idea of what you are talking about when you say, "Celtic art and music."

carillion

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 664
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2014, 10:16:20 pm »
Quote from: NightQueen;157641
To be honest the mythology of all the countries typically described at "Celtic" interest me.  I find both their similarities and differences interesting.  As for art and music, I think maybe "Celtic Style" might be a better term (especially since I also appreciate modern art and music with a "Celtic" flare) .  There are certainly some similarities in art and music between those various groups that's what lead to those people to be grouped together along with language.

I think Earthworm pretty much hit the nail on the head when she spoke of the Celtic Revival. What most people (myself included) are probably mean when they say "Celtic" is the "Celtic Revival" and everything that came out of it.

I also think for a lot of people (especially in the US) when they say Celtic they actually mean Irish and/or (less often) British.  And like I said, I'm not trying to reconstruct any Iron Age religion so, it matters less to me if the term is 100% correct.  It's interesting discussion to have on an academic level, but doesn't really mean anything to me on a gut level where my appreciation of that art, music and mythology comes from.  If that makes any sense? The term "Celtic" works as a short hand, because I think most people at least have an idea of what you are talking about when you say, "Celtic art and music."


I'm probably over-thinking it, then. I'm kind of a history freak so when someone references a people, my first thoughts are 'where' and 'when'. Especially if the people being referenced have over a thousand year history. It's like when people dress in British 'Gothic' ( not 'goth':)) clothing but really you have just about every period right up to Edwardian represented.
But if one took it poetically, I guess I would think of people half myth enshrouded. And I'm at sea as to what it would mean spiritually as there's Ireland>Iberia>who knows? historically.

So I guess I *was* asking it on a gut level as in 'what does it mean to you ' because it would mean something different to different people. Though it's true that in the U.K. there is a whole swash of stuff labeled 'Celtic'. There were times I yearned for some Saxons or even fresh Normans to come and pillage the shops.

Or maybe they did, but this time around they are called 'tourists'.:D:
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 10:17:38 pm by carillion »

NightQueen

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2014
  • Posts: 136
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2014, 02:14:43 am »
Quote from: carillion;157644
I'm probably over-thinking it, then. I'm kind of a history freak so when someone references a people, my first thoughts are 'where' and 'when'. Especially if the people being referenced have over a thousand year history.

Nothing wrong with being a history freak:D.   I actually consider myself a bit of a history buff.

Like I said I think that's an interesting discussion to have and probably an important one for reconstructionist to have. I think if you're going to try to reconstruct a religion then important to try really understand who's religion you are really reconstructing.

Quote from:
It's like when people dress in British 'Gothic' ( not 'goth':)) clothing but really you have just about every period right up to Edwardian represented.

I suppose it rather like Renaissance fairs where people dress in a hole gambit of historical styles.


Quote from:
But if one took it poetically, I guess I would think of people half myth enshrouded. And I'm at sea as to what it would mean spiritually as there's Ireland>Iberia>who knows? historically.

I think what it means spiritually would depend on what you're trying to do religiously speaking. If you're recon it has more implications than if you're not.


Quote from:
I guess I *was* asking it on a gut level as in 'what does it mean to you ' because it would mean something different to different people. Though it's true that in the U.K. there is a whole swash of stuff labeled 'Celtic'. There were times I yearned for some Saxons or even fresh Normans to come and pillage the shops.

Or maybe they did, but this time around they are called 'tourists'.:D:

I think on a gut level I do long for that mysterious misty place that Earthworm spoke of.  A world of myth and magic. That's what the word Celtic brings to mind.  Maybe it never really existed, but at the end of day I don't think it really matters because it exists within me. So, while it may not be 100% historically accurate it's spiritually true for me.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 02:20:23 am by NightQueen »

Louisvillian

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 405
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 69
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Syncretic religio romana/Hellenised Romano-British religion
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2014, 03:06:06 am »
Quote from: carillion;157607
So what does it mean to 'feel drawn to the Celts'?  What aspects of this as yet ill-defined group are being referenced?
What I'd surmise many people, especially Neopagans, think of when they say 'Celtic' is actually a mix of turn-of-the-century romanticism of the Celtic Revival, James Frazer's comparative mythology, and Dumezil's hypotheses. Which, honestly, isn't that bizarre even if it isn't terribly accurate. Very little was known about the Celts as a historical people in the early-mid 20th century; a lot of it was shrouded in mystery and romanticism. So academics filled the (very large) gaps with what they could: very general, broad ideas on the social structure and religion of Indo-Europeans as a whole. Combine that with the common motifs of magic and heroism in extant texts of Celtic mythology and legend, like the Arthurian cycles, and you have a 'feel' of ancient, long-lost wonder and mystery. You can see it plain-as-day in "Celtic" flavoured fantasy literature, of which The Mists of Avalon is the most shining example.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 03:06:38 am by Louisvillian »

carillion

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 664
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2014, 03:38:10 am »
Quote from: Louisvillian;157649
What I'd surmise many people, especially Neopagans, think of when they say 'Celtic' is actually a mix of turn-of-the-century romanticism of the Celtic Revival, James Frazer's comparative mythology, and Dumezil's hypotheses. Which, honestly, isn't that bizarre even if it isn't terribly accurate. Very little was known about the Celts as a historical people in the early-mid 20th century; a lot of it was shrouded in mystery and romanticism. So academics filled the (very large) gaps with what they could: very general, broad ideas on the social structure and religion of Indo-Europeans as a whole. Combine that with the common motifs of magic and heroism in extant texts of Celtic mythology and legend, like the Arthurian cycles, and you have a 'feel' of ancient, long-lost wonder and mystery. You can see it plain-as-day in "Celtic" flavoured fantasy literature, of which The Mists of Avalon is the most shining example.


Oh lord. We used to call it 'The Afterdinner Mints of Avalon' due to it's insipid and 'gothic novel' quality. For pure atmospheric fiction I much preferred T.H.White's ' The Once and Future King' (the 'lovely Cornwall sisters':) ). Of course now that Bradley's past is out, it may have acquired a more sinister over-tone.

But I expect you are right regarding common conceptions of things 'Celt'. I have a Charles Rennie Mackintosh pin I bought in Scotland and frequently people comment on it's being 'Celtic'. Well no, actually it's Art Deco but it has a 'knot' motif. But it is true that romantic notions flourish in a vacuum . And to be honest, I was astounded at the various cat-fights I read from those speaking on the Celtic origins debate. I thought 'hard science' was above such things but no. So I can't really fault people for taking the scenic route when those who are tasked with finding hard answers hold up the process with entrenched views.

Vale

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 333
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2014, 04:59:48 am »
Quote from: carillion;157607
I have read many times that people feel drawn to things Celtic.

So what does it mean to 'feel drawn to the Celts'?  


 But "Celtic" culture  is not purely historical. It is alive, well and constantly evolving as it has been since the original "celts" arrived in these islands.

There is plenty of discussion on this board of cultural appropriation in respect of Native American beliefs but somehow "celtic"  is fair game. It has its own history of oppression and the celtic languages came very close to being wiped out. Some of them indeed are still very close to extinction.

Micheál

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Belfast, N. Ireland
  • Posts: 604
  • Country: ie
  • Total likes: 48
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Alexandrian Wicca, Gaelic Polytheism
Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2014, 05:21:59 am »
Quote from: carillion;157607

The definition or description of the Term 'Celt' seems to change yearly if not monthly.

So what does it mean to 'feel drawn to the Celts'?  What aspects of this as yet ill-defined group are being referenced?
Like many here, deities, myth, pre-Christian beliefs, e.t.c., but since 'Celtic' is a language grouping,  that alongside contemporary traditional Celtic, or Irish specifically for me, traditions is what 'feels' Celtic.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 05:23:31 am by Micheál »
Semper Fidelis

carillion

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 664
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2014, 05:43:00 am »
Quote from: Vale;157659
But "Celtic" culture  is not purely historical. It is alive, well and constantly evolving as it has been since the original "celts" arrived in these islands.

There is plenty of discussion on this board of cultural appropriation in respect of Native American beliefs but somehow "celtic"  is fair game. It has its own history of oppression and the celtic languages came very close to being wiped out. Some of them indeed are still very close to extinction.


I wonder if you could expand on this? If it's not even known , really, just who the Celts were (more is known about who they became later on, if you know what I mean) how is their social evolution charted? Or is your start when what are called Celtic people arrived in the U.K.?

I'm also very interested in your views on appropriation. Who is appropriating what parts of 'Celtic culture'? ( I'm not doubting you, it's just not clear to me). Even if it were not the case that Celts in different parts of the U.K. came from different areas, they each subsequently developed distinctive cultures. Those who live in Ireland are going to be very different from those in Cornwall or Wales. And certainly there are very different forms of the arts (music especially is quite area-specific in terms of development and output).

It's true the history of language loss and near loss in U.K. is sad and has it's echo's in all parts of the world. What is good is how much was preserved and prevented from becoming extinct. There is no suppression going on now that they have protected status is there?

carillion

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 664
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2014, 05:48:01 am »
Quote from: Micheál;157660
Like many here, deities, myth, pre-Christian beliefs, e.t.c., but since 'Celtic' is a language grouping,  that alongside contemporary traditional Celtic, or Irish specifically for me, traditions is what 'feels' Celtic.


There is so much information and cultural nuance in a language itself that I  can completely understand this . I discovered when I traveled that to really understand a culture, I needed to learn as much of the language as I could. And when I look back on many of the places I loved, I tend to *think* in the language of that place. Especially the names of things....

Gilbride

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2012
  • Posts: 597
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2014, 07:32:49 am »
Quote from: carillion;157607
The definition or description of the Term 'Celt' seems to change yearly if not monthly.


Not really, the word is just misused a lot. "Celtic" is a language family, so it has nothing to do with genetics and never has. It's not surprising that different Celtic-speaking cultures in different areas show different characteristics. It's also not surprising that they tend to have some things in common.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
3 Replies
1894 Views
Last post July 09, 2011, 11:07:08 am
by RandallS
36 Replies
9000 Views
Last post June 13, 2013, 08:29:38 pm
by ALiteraryLady
8 Replies
1547 Views
Last post January 14, 2014, 10:33:23 pm
by SheepsKnuckle
3 Replies
1453 Views
Last post January 19, 2017, 12:39:55 am
by Sorcha
2 Replies
1684 Views
Last post March 31, 2019, 10:27:34 pm
by Zlote Jablko

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 206
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 2
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal