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Author Topic: What does 'Celt' feel like?  (Read 8701 times)

Aiwelin

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Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2014, 10:01:49 pm »
Quote from: Mountain Cat;157711
Appropriation is one reason why I walked away from heathenry.

 
Not to derail the conversation, but I'm wondering what issues you noticed with appropriation in Heathenry?  Just curious :)
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Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2014, 10:13:21 pm »
Quote from: Vale;157659
But "Celtic" culture  is not purely historical. It is alive, well and constantly evolving as it has been since the original "celts" arrived in these islands.

There is plenty of discussion on this board of cultural appropriation in respect of Native American beliefs but somehow "celtic"  is fair game. It has its own history of oppression and the celtic languages came very close to being wiped out. Some of them indeed are still very close to extinction.
I totally agree with what Vale is saying here!! Celtic is a a very broad term for many historical and modern cultures. I am very drawn to the cultures of Wales & Scotland, mainly because that's where my family comes from! I think living in a country such as America, one longs for a heritage, and seeking that heritage makes my life so much fuller.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 10:18:57 pm by Cabal »
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Mountain Cat

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Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2014, 10:45:47 pm »
Quote from: Aiwelin;157755
Not to derail the conversation, but I'm wondering what issues you noticed with appropriation in Heathenry?  Just curious :)

 

Ah, okay. Let's see. Several times I was told that I didn't have the right to practice the Heathen religion because I wasn't actually born in any of the historically heathen lands. A*Swedish grandfather didn't qualify me to such practices and beliefs and I was appropriating that to which I had no right. So I backed off and eventually gave up, UPG notwithstanding.

Now that I've seen similar thoughts about Celtic beliefs, I'm considering backing off again. So far, I think I can 'be allowed' to be Christian, Wiccan, Atheist or Pantheist/Polytheist, but I have no right to practice other beliefs/religions that come from other cultures. Which I understand, somewhat. Obviously, I don't just have a right to whatever I want, but I had hoped to find something at least within my heritage. So Being Canadian, this is kind of sucking for me at the moment, as I'm really confused.

carillion

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Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2014, 12:31:02 am »
Quote from: Mountain Cat;157759
Ah, okay. Let's see. Several times I was told that I didn't have the right to practice the Heathen religion because I wasn't actually born in any of the historically heathen lands. A*Swedish grandfather didn't qualify me to such practices and beliefs and I was appropriating that to which I had no right. So I backed off and eventually gave up, UPG notwithstanding.

Now that I've seen similar thoughts about Celtic beliefs, I'm considering backing off again. So far, I think I can 'be allowed' to be Christian, Wiccan, Atheist or Pantheist/Polytheist, but I have no right to practice other beliefs/religions that come from other cultures. Which I understand, somewhat. Obviously, I don't just have a right to whatever I want, but I had hoped to find something at least within my heritage. So Being Canadian, this is kind of sucking for me at the moment, as I'm really confused.

Don't confuse 'blood' with 'cultural heritage'. Your cultural heritage as a Canadian is simply rocking with Celts. The language, arts and lore they brought with them are a part of our heritage, too. Go back and re-read your Canadian history from the year zot. Canada has a rich and diverse cultural heritage and that includes First Nations people (in my opinion)

I have so many Heathen friends that are embarrassed by the Naziastru and their ilk. If anybody tries to tell you that it's only your genetics that count, pass them by.

Spiritual and metaphysical quests and paths have no genetics nor physical requirements. Full stop. Don't confuse asking for directions with asking for *permission*. You don't require anyone's permission in your search. You may require direction and sometimes, in this as in anything in life, it may be denied to you. But there has to be a better reason than your physical attributes.

There are some people who are looking for a group identity and who may want to guard that jealously by throwing up all kinds of bullshit 'requirements' . You are not looking for 'identity' or to join the cool group at school. So pass them by as well and pay them no heed.

If you are intrusive anywhere, you will be told. But don't anticipate it.As long as you show respect for others and yourself, most people are happy to teach  and share.

Now I have to go outside and cool down as reading things like what you a have written makes me so damn angry:mad:

(not at you:), at people who try to mask their insecurities and bigotry under some faux 'requirements for group membership' bullcrap. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2014, 12:32:38 am by carillion »

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Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2014, 12:44:14 am »
Quote from: Mountain Cat;157759
Now that I've seen similar thoughts about Celtic beliefs, I'm considering backing off again.

I've seen this too, but I don't agree with it. And it ready bothers me. I don't think anyone has the right to dictate or restrict anyone else's *beliefs*, just like I think the gods call whoever they want to call, regardless of where someone was born or what color their skin is. As someone who was called by Brighid, but who is a US citizen and who has never been to Ireland, this is something I've struggled with quite a bit.

Don't get me wrong. I think cultural appropriation is a bad thing. But I think it's possible to define cultural appropriation too broadly. To me, there's a difference between *beliefs* and *sacred objects and rituals*. What I believe is nobody's business but my own, regardless of where I might have first heard of those beliefs.  But I don't have the right to take (or mimic) the sacred items or rituals that someone else created for their own use.

Similarly, I don't think I have the right to try to profit (financially or otherwise) from someone else's practices. F'ex, no matter how respectful I am about traditional Hawai'ian spirituality and no matter how much I learn about it or who teaches me, as someone who is not Hawai'ian and did not grow up in that culture, it would be wrong for me to put myself out there as an expert in traditional Hawai'ian spirituality or as a kahuna or anything like that, and I think it would also be wrong for me to take elements of that culture and use them in any kind of commercial venture.***  However, I do believe I have the right to express my beliefs however I want to in my own *private* practice.

I realize that others might disagree with the lines I've drawn, and I'm totally open to discussion. I'm willing to be convinced that other definitions are better. But, based on what I've read about cultural appropriation written by members of cultures that are historically oppressed, and trying to apply those perspectives to my own practice, this is the best I've come up with so far.

You have the right to believe what you believe.

Just my $0.02.

*** I could see a possible exception to this for researchers who work closely with members of the culture they're studying AND who have the permission of those people to share things like texts of prayers, pictures of sacred objects, recordings of rituals, etc., for a publication.
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Sophia C

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Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2014, 03:21:21 am »
Quote from: Mountain Cat;157759
Now that I've seen similar thoughts about Celtic beliefs, I'm considering backing off again. So far, I think I can 'be allowed' to be Christian, Wiccan, Atheist or Pantheist/Polytheist, but I have no right to practice other beliefs/religions that come from other cultures. Which I understand, somewhat. Obviously, I don't just have a right to whatever I want, but I had hoped to find something at least within my heritage. So Being Canadian, this is kind of sucking for me at the moment, as I'm really confused.

I didn't say this, and I absolutely didn't mean it. I certainly don't think that only people who live in Celtic countries can practice Celtic Paganisms (of various kinds). Anyone can. What's more, Celtic reconstructionism was invented in North America, and is a really good attempt to do Celtic Paganism without being overly romanticising or claiming things as Celtic that are not. It's still influenced by the culture it came from, and that's fine. The same goes for other paths that work hard to fill in the 'gaps' in appropriate ways. And eclecticism that is respectful of the cultures it draws on can be beautiful and creative. As long as it's understood that other cultural influences exist, and people are trying not to be appropriative, I'm absolutely fine with anyone at all practicing Celtic Paganism. There wouldn't be half the beautiful mix of beliefs and practices that make up Celtic Paganisms today if there weren't people all across the world practicing things that originated in Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Cornwall and the south-western counties, Brittany, and the Isle of Man.

What I object to is people staying ignorant of the cultures where their beliefs originate. That's what leads to cultural appropriation. As I've said, I personally believe that the answer to this involves learning some history, finding out about real cultures (rather than fantasies), and getting in touch with the places you're honouring, in some way. There are many ways to do that, in this globalised world. Start by reading a local newspaper, maybe. Radio and TV stations from these countries are available online. There's literature, music, dance, art etc to look into if you find any of that interesting. Definitely reading a history of the lands in question is a good idea. Visiting is obviously wonderful if you're lucky enough to be able to, but I realise that's impossible for many people. Basically I'm in favour of exploring the reality of the countries whose folklore, mythology and old gods you're working with.

But ultimately that's just my opinion. Others have different ideas about  this. But there are absolutely ways to do Celtic Paganisms without cultural misappropriation. And many people do just that. The Celtic cultures are a grand example of diaspora that brought new things home with it. I'm part of a diaspora community myself. We left our lands and spread all over the world. (I have cousins in America, Australia, Britain and Ireland, all from one family.) That's a huge part of the Celtic lands' cultures. If it weren't for that diaspora, I don't think Celtic Paganisms would be half as interesting as they are today.
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NightQueen

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Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2014, 04:51:29 am »
Quote from: Aster Breo;157770
Don't get me wrong. I think cultural appropriation is a bad thing. But I think it's possible to define cultural appropriation too broadly. To me, there's a difference between *beliefs* and *sacred objects and rituals*. What I believe is nobody's business but my own, regardless of where I might have first heard of those beliefs.  But I don't have the right to take (or mimic) the sacred items or rituals that someone else created for their own use.

You have the right to believe what you believe.

I agree with you completely.  I've always thought of cultural appropriation as insincere use of another culture because it's "cool". People getting Chinese lettering that they have no idea what it means tattooed on them, for example. I don't generally extend it to people who have a sincere interest and respect for the culture.  I think the term gets thrown around a little too frequently.

I think it's stupid to say I have any more right to practice Druidry or any other other Celtic practice because my last name starts with an O then any one else. Nor do I think I should I be accused of misappropriating Celtic culture because I was born in North America even though my entire family is from Ireland.

And quite frankly,  for good or for ill cultural appropriation has been for thousands of years.  The Roman certainly appropriated Greek culture.  I'm sure you can find many other examples throughout history. I think it's just a fact of life. When two cultures meet they are bound to steal bits from each other.

Sophia C

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Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2014, 05:14:09 am »
Quote from: NightQueen;157800
I think it's stupid to say I have any more right to practice Druidry or any other other Celtic practice because my last name starts with an O then any one else. Nor do I think I should I be accused of misappropriating Celtic culture because I was born in North America even though my entire family is from Ireland.

I'm curious -  who is saying this? I've never once heard this, and I live outside Ireland (in the land of the oppressors!) myself. I'm wondering if people are misunderstanding a bit, here. If not, I'd like to know who is making these ridiculous claims, so I can go and rant at them. Are people really saying your name needs to start with an O to practice CR or Druidry? I'm really confused, as I know of no Druid order that would say anything of the sort.
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NightQueen

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Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2014, 06:27:59 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;157802
I'm curious -  who is saying this? I've never once heard this, and I live outside Ireland (in the land of the oppressors!) myself. I'm wondering if people are misunderstanding a bit, here. If not, I'd like to know who is making these ridiculous claims, so I can go and rant at them. Are people really saying your name needs to start with an O to practice CR or Druidry? I'm really confused, as I know of no Druid order that would say anything of the sort.

It wasn't directed specifically at your post, but I've seen posts here (in other threads) and other places that seem to imply if you are not a member of a certain cultural you are committing cultural appropriation if you adopt their beliefs and/or practices. I was just using Druidry and CR as examples since this thread was about the Celts and I happen to be of Irish ancestry.

I'm not say there aren't people who commit cultural appropriation, but I think sometimes some people are a little quick to throw the term around.

And like I said in my earlier post, I not sure it's something that can be entirely avoided (not that it should be encouraged either). There will always be people who steal things from other cultures because they are "cool".  They very rarely mean it in a malicious way (while that doesn't excuse it). In many instances they become permanent parts of that second culture.

Micheál

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Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2014, 12:35:37 pm »
Quote from: Vale;157677


The loss of the celtic languages is more than sad - it is a cultural disaster. Welsh is now back from the brink and it is a mandatory school subject. However the number of English incomers who complain bitterly about their children being taught Welsh is enormous and the future of the language is by no means assured. I think the last native Manx speaker has just died and Cornish is only spoken by a few.


Not only due to the recession, but the Irish government is completely banjaxed. Irish remains the official language,  and most public signs are bilingual,  but the way it's taught in schools is completely terrible, and it was purposed to be taken off their leaving cert a few years back.(which didn't happen with good protest) Many that don't speak it detest how they were forced to learn it in school, and knowing it only without English way back when helped build a backwards stigma attached to it.

In Northern Ireland it's only a recognised official minority language, but because of the political situation many from the Nationalist communities value and place emphasis on it. Belfast actually has it's own urban Gaeltacht quarter,  and has the highest concentration of fluent speakers outside of the Gaeltachtaí....here and over the boarder,  it seems to be the dedication of groups supporting it, and not the governments, that keep it alive, though they're starting to catch on.
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Aster Breo

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Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2014, 01:14:08 pm »
(
Quote from: Micheál;157823
banjaxed
Great word!!! )
"The status is not quo."  ~ Dr. Horrible

Micheál

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Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2014, 01:32:19 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;157830
(
 Great word!!! )

 It also describes how I feel today lol
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Aster Breo

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Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2014, 01:39:44 pm »
Quote from: Micheál;157832
It also describes how I feel today lol

I assume it means basically what it sounds like? My dictionary app looked at me crosseyed when I tried to look up the definition. ;-)
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Aranel

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Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2014, 01:59:39 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;157833
I assume it means basically what it sounds like? My dictionary app looked at me crosseyed when I tried to look up the definition. ;-)

 
Completely and utterly broken. Ruined. Also can mean exhausted.

At least around here that's what it means :P

Aster Breo

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Re: What does 'Celt' feel like?
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2014, 02:14:21 pm »
Quote from: Aranel;157835
Completely and utterly broken. Ruined. Also can mean exhausted.

At least around here that's what it means :P

Thanks.  That's pretty much what I got from the context, but it's always good to actually know what a word means before trying to use it. ;-)
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