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Author Topic: There goes another part of the worldhood  (Read 4321 times)

carillion

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There goes another part of the worldhood
« on: August 24, 2014, 04:19:43 pm »
I didn't know where to post this as it seems mostly U.S. news here but this is part of a pattern that will effect everybody somehow.

It's pretty bad when *this* is a secondary news story today :

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/24/libya-capital-under-islamist-control-tripoli-airport-seized-operation-dawn

I tend to look at the bigger picture. 'ISIS' is more understandable ( though much more scary) but the overall pattern of the 'Islamic Jihadists' is disturbing. Libya is a huge country that borders on a lot of other countries, one which is at least very unstable (Sudan).
The only thing that gives me hope is how hopelessly tribal and dynastic many of the groups are.


I have an ongoing discussion with a friend about the way the world is moving. I reckon the next big social evolution *has* to be for religion to stop being a 'force' or cause in people's and country's functioning.

It's often tossed off ( I have myself) that so-called religious wars are nothing but a cover for land grabs, wealth accumulation and so forth: in other words, religion is the reason given , but not the actual goal.
Trouble is,  I don't think that's true in what is happening now. Islam is a cradle to grave all inclusive belief system. From the moment one is born in a Muslim theocracy, it is omnipresent in a way that I didn't even understand until I lived there. It surrounds and envelops one.
Although I found the calling to prayers from the mosques beautiful, just think about it - all through the day and night one hears the message. You don't have to go to the mosque to get a sermon in the same way one goes to church (or not) here.

Mind, the Muslim religion is lovely in many ways.But when it's got it's ugly face on, it is not amenable to reason or compromise. It's too bred in the bone for that.

And you cannot turn away openly. It's not just your family that will banish you,it's the whole social surround.

This is *not* some kind of an anti-Muslim rant. I am not anti-Muslim.

But I fear *any* power block that is fired by religion and theocracies are all that.

It's a worry.

Redfaery

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Re: There goes another part of the worldhood...
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2014, 12:41:12 am »
Quote from: carillion;157001
I didn't know where to post this as it seems mostly U.S. news here but this is part of a pattern that will effect everybody somehow.

 
I'm really not sure what you're getting at here. There have always been theocracies, and pretty much every major religion has built itself one at some point in history. Those theocracies don't do nice things to nonbelievers. This is nothing new, nor is it exclusive to Islam.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

carillion

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Re: There goes another part of the worldhood...
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2014, 01:51:30 am »
Quote from: Redfaery;157021
I'm really not sure what you're getting at here. There have always been theocracies, and pretty much every major religion has built itself one at some point in history. Those theocracies don't do nice things to nonbelievers. This is nothing new, nor is it exclusive to Islam.

 
 This is not about individual countries, but about 'countries' plural. A potential Ummah of 1.6 billion people. It bothers me that the U.K. Law Society now incorporates Sharia law. It bothers me that the fact that Libya, a huge country, could be radicalized and it's a second string news story.

But as far as worrying as an unbeliever,not really. That's one of the safest places to be given the Islamic Da'wah.

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Re: There goes another part of the worldhood...
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2014, 04:19:49 am »
Quote from: carillion;157026
This is not about individual countries, but about 'countries' plural. A potential Ummah of 1.6 billion people. It bothers me that the U.K. Law Society now incorporates Sharia law.


All it does is recognise that it exists. A decision made in a Sharia court is unlikely to hold water in a UK court of law. But there is an attempt being made to respect manifestations of religious belief - in a way that is not done in, say, France. That's why France has a ban on the burqa and the UK doesn't.

But we don't have Sharia courts taking over the country. That's what people say when they start to get paranoid. And it's just not true. Feel free to come here and see. :)
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Re: There goes another part of the worldhood...
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2014, 04:28:01 am »
Quote from: carillion;157001

...The only thing that gives me hope is how hopelessly tribal and dynastic many of the groups are.

...

Mind, the Muslim religion is lovely in many ways.But when it's got it's ugly face on, it is not amenable to reason or compromise. It's too bred in the bone for that.

...

This is *not* some kind of an anti-Muslim rant. I am not anti-Muslim.


This kinda reads like one, though :/

carillion

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Re: There goes another part of the worldhood...
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2014, 05:01:18 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;157030
All it does is recognise that it exists. A decision made in a Sharia court is unlikely to hold water in a UK court of law. But there is an attempt being made to respect manifestations of religious belief - in a way that is not done in, say, France. That's why France has a ban on the burqa and the UK doesn't.

But we don't have Sharia courts taking over the country. That's what people say when they start to get paranoid. And it's just not true. Feel free to come here and see. :)


I have been there-I have lived there and I have seen. I was speaking of the principle and that particular principle of " respecting religious belief" seems to ignore the plight of the very people who stand to lose by it: women and children. It's very tokenism is insulting: it's all about appearances and not about principles of justice as the U.K. has previously enshrined.
But then I've always believed in the separation of church and state and I see the justice system as being part of the heart of the State.

carillion

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Re: There goes another part of the worldhood...
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2014, 05:04:24 am »
Quote from: ainellewellyn;157031
This kinda reads like one, though :/

 

Then respectfully, I believe either you have missed the point of the post or I have failed to articulate it properly.

I don't care for any religions of any stripe influencing political and social policy .

Sarah

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Re: There goes another part of the worldhood...
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2014, 05:28:20 am »
Quote from: carillion;157032

But then I've always believed in the separation of church and state and I see the justice system as being part of the heart of the State.

 
But the Church and the State are not separate in the UK
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Re: There goes another part of the worldhood...
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2014, 05:51:36 am »
Quote from: carillion;157032
I have been there-I have lived there and I have seen.


What terrible incursions of sharia law have you seen on the streets of the UK?

Quote
I was speaking of the principle and that particular principle of " respecting religious belief" seems to ignore the plight of the very people who stand to lose by it: women and children. It's very tokenism is insulting: it's all about appearances and not about principles of justice as the U.K. has previously enshrined.


I disagree entirely. Britain is one of the only countries in Europe where any justice is being done towards people who want to manifest their religion anywhere beyond the inside of their heads. (I can direct you towards my wife's dissertation from law school, on the subject of the European courts and their unwillingness to uphold the rights of any religious people to manifest their religion outwardly, whether Muslim or Christian or something else, if you're interested. I don't know if SJ has put it online anywhere, but I can encourage them to.) I don't want to live in a place where religious dress is banned, either for Muslims or Druids, thank you very much. I prefer the form of freedom we have here.

And as for Muslim women and children having no agency and not knowing their own minds, that's rather imperialist and colonial, wouldn't you say?

Quote
But then I've always believed in the separation of church and state and I see the justice system as being part of the heart of the State.


As Jake says, we don't have that separation. You're speaking of a cultural and legal norm that applies in the US, not in the UK.

Although in reality, I think we're currently doing a lot better at keeping religion out of the courts than the US is. Arguably. And ironically.
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Re: There goes another part of the worldhood...
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2014, 07:28:34 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;157035
Although in reality, I think we're currently doing a lot better at keeping religion out of the courts than the US is. Arguably. And ironically.

 
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carillion

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Re: There goes another part of the worldhood...
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2014, 03:15:41 pm »
Quote from: Naomi J;157035
What terrible incursions of sharia law have you seen on the streets of the UK?

 don't want to live in a place where religious dress is banned, either for Muslims or Druids, thank you very much. I prefer the form of freedom we have here.

And as for Muslim women and children having no agency and not knowing their own minds, that's rather imperialist and colonial, wouldn't you say?


As Jake says, we don't have that separation. You're speaking of a cultural and legal norm that applies in the US, not in the UK.

Although in reality, I think we're currently doing a lot better at keeping religion out of the courts than the US is. Arguably. And ironically.


In terms of imperialism and colonialism, I would say the the shoe is on the other foot. I think it's naive at best and willfully blind at worst to think that because *most* people  might understand they have a voice that *all* people do. I have found that in the main,it is only those not directly affected that would hold to the view that *of course*all women children can opt out of their family's and communities structure at any time. It's a bit like saying honour killings or FGM don't occur because it's against the law so no one in the country would permit or allow it.

It's that kind of divisiveness that the danger lies in. It's not happening 'in the streets' unless you can tell from looking that the child you are looking at is a bride (sanctioned by Sharia law) , or that the bruises and cuts on that woman couldn't have been the result of spouse abuse sanctioned by her relatives  ( and Sharia law) so she must have fallen down the stairs. Try telling a woman or child that it is fine to turn against their family .It doesn't work very well as there is precious little to offer her if she does. And it's difficult to protect her. I too assumed that women in the most orthodox communities had agency...until I realized they didn't,not in real life terms - only in theory.

I also think people should dress as they like to express their religion. But with the caveat that it *is* based in religion and is spiritual,not aspirational which things like the burqa are. There is nothing in Islamic religion about being totally covered up - that is cultural. Which can become problematic when someone moves to another culture. I fail to see the point in picture I.D. when someone has their face covered ( some people here pushed for allowing women to have their faces covered on their driver's license). If allowed, then that gives *extra* rights to some by virtue of what they feel is their religion.

I understand the French rulings as they are in line with their historical/political path with their roots in the Revolution, especially the years 1789-1799.  There is nothing surprising at all about their stance on such things.

And any irony lays in the interplay of American and French politics from before and during this period.

AineLlewellyn

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Re: There goes another part of the worldhood...
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2014, 03:36:18 pm »
Quote from: carillion;157062
It's that kind of divisiveness that the danger lies in. It's not happening 'in the streets' unless you can tell from looking that the child you are looking at is a bride (sanctioned by Sharia law) , or that the bruises and cuts on that woman couldn't have been the result of spouse abuse sanctioned by her relatives  ( and Sharia law) so she must have fallen down the stairs. Try telling a woman or child that it is fine to turn against their family .It doesn't work very well as there is precious little to offer her if she does. And it's difficult to protect her. I too assumed that women in the most orthodox communities had agency...until I realized they didn't,not in real life terms - only in theory.

I also think people should dress as they like to express their religion. But with the caveat that it *is* based in religion and is spiritual,not aspirational which things like the burqa are. There is nothing in Islamic religion about being totally covered up - that is cultural. Which can become problematic when someone moves to another culture. I fail to see the point in picture I.D. when someone has their face covered ( some people here pushed for allowing women to have their faces covered on their driver's license). If allowed, then that gives *extra* rights to some by virtue of what they feel is their religion.

 
You must be equally appalled by Biblical laws being shoved into US laws, right? I'm sure, since you are so scandalized by Sharia law and view it as only existing in one (oppressive) form.

The shoe is really not on the other foot re: colonialism and imperialism...cause you're bringing a lot of colonialist assumptions and biases, as well as US biases, into this conversation.

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Re: There goes another part of the worldhood...
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2014, 03:39:37 pm »
Quote from: carillion;157062


 
So, basically - because some people beat their wives under Sharia law, the problem is Muslims?  Never mind that if they didn't have that excuse, they'd use another.  It's not like the problem doesn't exist worldwide.

Honestly, this looks like barely-veiled religion bashing, with a veneer of "well not the GOOD ones, that come to this country and CONFORM".  The WESTERNIZED ones.

If that's the best reasoning you've got, I'm sorry, it's just bigotry.  No amount of fancy hat excuses can change that.

carillion

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Re: There goes another part of the worldhood...
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2014, 04:03:08 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;157065
So, basically - because some people beat their wives under Sharia law, the problem is Muslims?  Never mind that if they didn't have that excuse, they'd use another.  It's not like the problem doesn't exist worldwide.

Honestly, this looks like barely-veiled religion bashing, with a veneer of "well not the GOOD ones, that come to this country and CONFORM".  The WESTERNIZED ones.

If that's the best reasoning you've got, I'm sorry, it's just bigotry.  No amount of fancy hat excuses can change that.


No and no. And I am not a believer in the 'Assimilation' model of addressing these problems, either.

And *this* - "Honestly, this looks like barely-veiled religion bashing, with a veneer of "well not the GOOD ones, that come to this country and CONFORM".  The WESTERNIZED ones."  is simply gratuitous, Westrocentric and so far from what I was attempting to discuss. I hold no candle for the oddly called 'Western' ideas of religion. If you are calling me a bigot because this is what you *think* I meant, then I was not as articulate as I should have been.

I wasn't even discussing 'The West'. I was discussing a global phenomenon.

And if speaking about the radicalized and/or fundamentalist parts of religion and their real-time effects globally is seen as 'religion bashing' then there is an impasse for me. The idea that religions of any stripe are off the table for discussion in case somebody thinks one is having a go, then there is no point in trying to discuss the political/cultural effects of religion globally or otherwise.

carillion

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Re: There goes another part of the worldhood...
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2014, 04:18:17 pm »
Quote from: ainellewellyn;157064
You must be equally appalled by Biblical laws being shoved into US laws, right? I'm sure, since you are so scandalized by Sharia law and view it as only existing in one (oppressive) form.

The shoe is really not on the other foot re: colonialism and imperialism...cause you're bringing a lot of colonialist assumptions and biases, as well as US biases, into this conversation.

I was not discussing the incursion religion into U.S. politics - that's another conversation.

I you don't find Sharia law oppressive, then we simply differ in our vies on it. I do find it oppressive, especially to women and children.

And *what* 'colonialist' assumptions do you think I was bringing into this? I'm curious. Also, why would I, as a Canadian ( a country with a fairly solid separation of church and state and one which rejected the adoption of Sharia law) bring U.S. biases into this?

Perhaps that's a U.S. bias: to think that people from the 'West' must be de facto Americans?:)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 04:19:18 pm by carillion »

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