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Author Topic: I won't fit any group  (Read 1784 times)

zamotcr

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I won't fit any group
« on: August 22, 2014, 12:13:19 am »
Since my last post in the forum (several months ago) I tried to stick to a single pagan religion.

I tried sticking to a religion of the gods I held to be "my friends".
So I tried with Druidry, I like it, but I couldn't just stick with it. Then I tried Hellenism, same story, I tried other groups too, without luck.

My problem: I believe all the gods are true, not just a single pantheon. My problem is I cannot stick to a single pantheon, I'm too multicultural guy. One group has things I like, while other groups has other things I believe too. I can't find all the answers in one single religion.

Some people told me I'm wrong worshipping a god from a culture and other from other another culture, that I'm disrespecting them. But ancients did.

Often, it is said: do it if you feel right.

So, I can participate in various religions and groups, but I can't stick to one, my beliefs cross several groups (western and eastern), so this make me eclectic, isn't it?

Now, feeling right is always the right thing? I can feel right with my beliefs, but are they right? Will I disrespect a god of one culture or pantheon because I also worship others of other cultures, because I can't stick to one single pantheon or culture?


Thanks :)

TheElegantShadow

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Re: I won't fit any group
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2014, 01:26:32 am »
Quote from: zamotcr;156901
Since my last post in the forum (several months ago) I tried to stick to a single pagan religion.

I tried sticking to a religion of the gods I held to be "my friends".
So I tried with Druidry, I like it, but I couldn't just stick with it. Then I tried Hellenism, same story, I tried other groups too, without luck.

My problem: I believe all the gods are true, not just a single pantheon. My problem is I cannot stick to a single pantheon, I'm too multicultural guy. One group has things I like, while other groups has other things I believe too. I can't find all the answers in one single religion.

Some people told me I'm wrong worshipping a god from a culture and other from other another culture, that I'm disrespecting them. But ancients did.

Often, it is said: do it if you feel right.

So, I can participate in various religions and groups, but I can't stick to one, my beliefs cross several groups (western and eastern), so this make me eclectic, isn't it?

Now, feeling right is always the right thing? I can feel right with my beliefs, but are they right? Will I disrespect a god of one culture or pantheon because I also worship others of other cultures, because I can't stick to one single pantheon or culture?


Thanks :)

Okay, hon. First off, there is nothing wrong with believing in multiple Pantheons. I myself and others, while keeping our attention set of specific Pantheons or Gods/Goddesses, do not denounce, nor deny the existence or importance of others. Speaking for myself, I personally hold the belief that all the Gods and Goddesses, even the Islamic/Christian/Jewish one, exist. It's not about, "Your Pantheon is inferior to mine," it's, "I happen identify quite a bit with this particular set of deities." Despite my beliefs, however, I choose to venerate and research the Norse and Celtic (and maybe Slavic) Pantheons, instead of going for a more multicultural approach. I'm not limiting myself, I'm going with what feels right to me, is what I'm saying.

Now, you have trouble fitting in within one, single Pantheon, because you have a respect/attraction to all/most others? There are forms of Paganism that both allow AND encourage the veneration of multiple, cross-culture deities and practices. You should check out Eclectic Wicca, if you haven't already. Now, this might come across as insulting, but that is not my intent:

Eclectic Wicca, to my understanding and observation is a bit of a stirring pot of beliefs. In essence, it takes quite a bit from various other cultures (Eastern practices like Karma and Meditation, European views and traditions such as triads of deities and horned figures, etc) to form its whole. An analogy I use is, "While the flames of other cultures still burn with passion and wizened determination, Wicca is a freshly lit torch, which takes a bit from everyone else's pyre." What I'm saying is that, while it has its own codes of conduct and such, it does allow for that freedom you're searching for. As I said, if you haven't already, check it out.

You'd be disrespecting your Gods/God/Deities by not going with what feels right. If you hold this view, and you feel that you're betraying it by trying to live some self-imposed standard of sticking with a single culture, you are not only disrespecting them, but yourself. Think, feel, and let your mind sort out your path, and if there doesn't lie one paved with footsteps before you, well then, forge your own, make your own path.

That's just my opinion. I'm still learning, just like you, and everyone else. Just relax and let yourself be molded and refined from your own smithing hammer, not that of others.

Good luck, hon! :) <3
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 01:32:13 am by TheElegantShadow »
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Re: I won't fit any group
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2014, 08:35:47 am »
Quote from: zamotcr;156901

So, I can participate in various religions and groups, but I can't stick to one, my beliefs cross several groups (western and eastern), so this make me eclectic, isn't it?

Now, feeling right is always the right thing? I can feel right with my beliefs, but are they right? Will I disrespect a god of one culture or pantheon because I also worship others of other cultures, because I can't stick to one single pantheon or culture?


Thanks :)

 
I am very much eclectic (though these days I prefer the term fusion...I think it more accurately describes the type of blending I do).  I have deities I work with on a regular basis and while there is a bias towards the Norse, it is not an exclusivity.

Outside of the things I do regularly, I have worked with other deities as I feel I need to.  Some I work with for a period of time and then their presence in my life fades away.  Some I work with in a much more limited capacity.  It has been my experience that if my approach is respectful, I won't have problems....I won't always get the results I expected, but I have never gotten a bad reception because of my relationship with other deities.

Groups aren't always pantheon-specific.  Both of the local groups here (the one I am part of and the other one that we meet with occasionally) are very eclectic in their approach.  The one that is farther away seems to lean more towards a "God and Goddess" format (honoring the divine masculine and feminine versus particular deities), though sometimes they do call on specific deities in ritual.  Our local group is very small and very diverse.  We each have our own leanings, and so when we do rituals, whoever is leading picks the direction for that ritual.  It has broadened my horizons quite a bit and let me work with deities I might not have otherwise come to.  In a lot of ways it was more comfortable for me to work in this way (with someone who has an established relationship with that particular deity to sort of guide the way).

While this works quite well for us, some people might not be comfortable with it.  I have heard of people who join a group they are comfortable with (which is specific to a pantheon) but that is fine with individual members looking outside the pantheon for their private work.  This is something that could work as well, if there is a group you particularly feel drawn to.

I think it comes down to respect.  If you think about what you are doing, and treat it like something of value, with consideration for all those involved, you are more likely to get a favorable result.  I have, on the other hand, heard of people just kind of combining different deities from different pantheons (who have vastly different personalities or inclinations) and sort of expecting it to all work out because they said so...and I think that is beyond rude and just asking for trouble.
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Redfaery

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Re: I won't fit any group
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2014, 08:52:28 am »
Quote from: zamotcr;156901
Some people told me I'm wrong worshipping a god from a culture and other from other another culture, that I'm disrespecting them. But ancients did.

Who said this? It's idiotic. For someone like me, who practically has a neon WELCOME sign hung over my head, it'd be stupid and frankly quite futile to try and bar anyone entry on the basis of their culture of origin.

Let me tell you something: my goddess is Benzaiten-sama. She is the one who is always with me, even if I'm too busy or stressed to notice. She's ALWAYS there. But you know who else has showed up? Loki! Just when I think, "phew, he's gone," he pops up and goes PAY ATTENTION TO ME.

In case you didn't know (I'm sure you do). Benzaiten and Loki are not just from different cultures. They're from different sides of the Eurasian landmass.

If you really want to make sure what you're doing is OK, why not ask? Pray, ask for a sign. Or just get someone to perform divination for you.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 08:53:33 am by Redfaery »
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random417

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Re: I won't fit any group
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2014, 09:15:11 am »
Quote from: zamotcr;156901
Some people told me I'm wrong worshipping a god from a culture and other from other another culture, that I'm disrespecting them. But ancients did.

My focus ancient history wise is pretty narrow, so it's possible I'm wrong here, by my understanding is that the ancients were more likely to borrow from another culture they meet than not.

I think it's likely that the ancients did what we do, work with those we know. Not everyone for sure, but if an imported god was known, they'd show up from time to time. I'd imagine an ancient would be amazed at all our gods, and a little confused why we keep them separate by origin
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

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Materialist

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Re: I won't fit any group
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2014, 10:32:03 am »
Quote from: random417;156912
My focus ancient history wise is pretty narrow, so it's possible I'm wrong here, by my understanding is that the ancients were more likely to borrow from another culture they meet than not.


This is also my conclusion from studying Paganism, either dead or those that have survived. What we need to understand is that Pagans didn't (and often still don't) have religions, they had belief systems, and they believed whatever they darn-tootin' wanted to.

Materialist

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Re: I won't fit any group
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2014, 10:39:20 am »
Quote from: zamotcr;156901

 Will I disrespect a god of one culture or pantheon because I also worship others of other cultures, because I can't stick to one single pantheon or culture?

 
I view religions as various ritual frameworks, the task being to find the framework that best allows you to engage in a relationship with whatever you're trying to relate to. Add beliefs and sacred beings to it as needed.

Faemon

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Re: I won't fit any group
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2014, 12:05:31 pm »
Quote from: zamotcr;156901
I can feel right with my beliefs, but are they right?


Depends on who or what you set up as the one to judge which of your beliefs are right whether you feel so or not. But why would you make that anybody other than you? Is this between anybody other than you and your deities?

Quote from: zamotcr;156901
Will I disrespect a god of one culture or pantheon because I also worship others of other cultures, because I can't stick to one single pantheon or culture?

 
Depends on your godphone and who's on the other line and how you interpret your UPG. If I recall, Lokisbruid over at wordpress had this UPG where Aphrodite I think went sort of "Him or Me" and she chose Loki so now Freya's aloof with her or something because both love goddesses might have been friends? From what I've gathered, though, UPG of inter-pantheon conflicts are rare, especially within spaces where UPG is accepted at all. (Hence, the U in UPG).

On the other hand, I've gotten thwapped by the Tuatha and the Aesir enough to go, "Guise, I'm no a yo-yo" and find the lowest (mythologically lowest) common denominator between the two belief systems. Which I then mix with Shinto because I'm Asian and see yokai more often than fae but I'm not Japanese--I'm just hitching my cart onto the nearest regional articulation of these experiences that didn't die with colonialization.

I must have said, like, ten offensive things right there. This is deep enough in my belief system that it's not going to change if a stranger, or even my family, says that my experiences are wrong and how I live my faith is part of The Problem of this world.

It's not that I want anybody to feel as if the identity of ethnic heritage is being pulled out from under them like a rug by someone else whose standpoint of ethnic heritage is the bedrock, but even if what I want doesn't matter, and it's all about the effect or impression that I put out there in the world...this is my faith; I've formed it after a lengthy, personal journey and that's not going to change just because somebody else said so-or-so. If it does come off to people that I'm going "ooh shiny" and not taking it seriously--well, I'd take it more of starting a worthwhile discussion to them (that I won't be a part of) than a condemnation, and I hope we can stay out of each others' ways.

Quote from: random417;156912
I think it's likely that the ancients did what we do, work with those we know. Not everyone for sure, but if an imported god was known, they'd show up from time to time. I'd imagine an ancient would be amazed at all our gods, and a little confused why we keep them separate by origin


I like that first bit. Eduard Norden proposed that there was an Agnostos Theos in Greece, which I think was a placeholder of all the deities that templegoers would have not known about but could honor anyway or something. I'd wondered what of deities that might not match even their general understanding or qualifications of deity, but that's still mighty thoughtful of them.
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Re: I won't fit any group
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2014, 09:06:18 pm »
Quote from: zamotcr;156901
Since my last post in the forum (several months ago) I tried to stick to a single pagan religion.

I tried sticking to a religion of the gods I held to be "my friends".
So I tried with Druidry, I like it, but I couldn't just stick with it. Then I tried Hellenism, same story, I tried other groups too, without luck.

My problem: I believe all the gods are true, not just a single pantheon. My problem is I cannot stick to a single pantheon, I'm too multicultural guy. One group has things I like, while other groups has other things I believe too. I can't find all the answers in one single religion.

Some people told me I'm wrong worshipping a god from a culture and other from other another culture, that I'm disrespecting them. But ancients did.

Often, it is said: do it if you feel right.

So, I can participate in various religions and groups, but I can't stick to one, my beliefs cross several groups (western and eastern), so this make me eclectic, isn't it?

Now, feeling right is always the right thing? I can feel right with my beliefs, but are they right? Will I disrespect a god of one culture or pantheon because I also worship others of other cultures, because I can't stick to one single pantheon or culture?


Thanks :)

 
I want to add my support to the notion that it's completely valid to be eclectic.  From my point of view, spirituality has to do with our relationship with the world of the unmanifest.  Every story - including those told in color or song or touch - has the potential to be spiritual.  Before I ever knew about paganism, I knew that my friends were to be found in stories, in music, in dance, in paintings, etc.

And, although it's also completely valid to stick to a single mythos or pantheon, I think my proclivity for eclecticism arises, in part, because of the nature of the world I live in.  My understanding is that many of the ancients, being syncretic thinkers in the first place, also applied that syncretism to worship (I can't say it was universal, but it was common).  But many of the ancients were more limited than we are in terms of transportation technology.  Many ancient societies recognized, or even partially adopted, the spiritual culture of neighbors without having the means to routinely travel long distances in short amounts of time.  The neo-pagans of today do have access to a much wider base of spiritual culture; we should be exploring other spiritualities even if we think it's extremely unlikely that we'll ever adopt them.

Speaking personally, I've worked with cross-pantheon and novel deities for many years - often within the same ritual or other spirit work.  I find that, tendentially speaking, they are willing to, even excited about, working with each other.  The only time I've ever encountered a problem was when the deities had radically opposed or worldviews, but that could also hold true within a single pantheon.  To my mind, asking Osiris and Set to work together - for most tasks, anyway - makes as little sense as asking  - again, in most circumstances (there's an exception to every rule) - Baldr to work with Hades.

I've also encountered people who tell me I should be working with only one pantheon (usually theirs and on their terms).  With respect to any person who holds that belief, I believe the principle itself is too limiting - although I do feel that everyone should familiarize themselves with at least one mythos in order to understand how deities work together both within and between different systems.

And, if you're ever in doubt, don't ask other humans.  Ask your spirit guides.  When it comes to this sort of thing, they know best.
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zamotcr

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Re: I won't fit any group
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2014, 03:41:14 pm »
Quote from: zamotcr;156901
...

 
Thanks everyone for the answers.

So basically there's nothing wrong with eclecticism.

Of course, is not the cup of tea of everyone. A lot of pagan will even criticize it, like friend of mine, who said to me: You are not practicing paganism, the way of the olds, you are practicing New Age, because you have beliefs from different religions. I was shocked and like: WTF! I'm not a New Ager, I don't believe in Atlantis, nor in Root Races, nor in Auras, Indigo kids, aliens and all crazy stuffs... I just believe my own things, my own conclusions, based on what I learned from different ancient sources and modern ones. I like Zen, I like asian native religions, I like Europe religions, even my own local indigenous ancestors.

What I always try to do is to respect each god, in which sense? If I had to approach a god, I do it in a proper way, in their old culture and context.

Thanks everyone.

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