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Author Topic: Pre-birth choices and privilege  (Read 13031 times)

random417

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Pre-birth choices and privilege
« on: August 20, 2014, 02:27:02 pm »
So, in examining the concept of privilege, I've hit a ... thing. Discussions and things on privilege, from what I've seen, presupposes that your privilege status on both ends isn't something you choose.

My personal beliefs are that you DO choose the parents you're born to prior to your birth. In the same vein, PRIOR TO BIRTH you choose both physical gender and mental gender. Choosing your parents also to a point decides economic status.

My question for you guys (especially the Social Justice advocates here), what does the concept of pre birth choice by your higher self do with the concept of privilege?

By the way, I'm hardly an SJ expert... I know I don't have the proper vocabulary for this discussion in many ways. It's not my intention to offend with the use of wrong terminology, and I apologize in advance. Feel free to share proper terms with me, but please remember I'm learning. :cool:
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

AL 1:42-44

Flame

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Re: Pre-birth choices and privilege
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2014, 02:58:38 pm »
Quote from: random417;156620
So, in examining the concept of privilege, I've hit a ... thing. Discussions and things on privilege, from what I've seen, presupposes that your privilege status on both ends isn't something you choose.

My personal beliefs are that you DO choose the parents you're born to prior to your birth. In the same vein, PRIOR TO BIRTH you choose both physical gender and mental gender. Choosing your parents also to a point decides economic status.

My question for you guys (especially the Social Justice advocates here), what does the concept of pre birth choice by your higher self do with the concept of privilege?

By the way, I'm hardly an SJ expert... I know I don't have the proper vocabulary for this discussion in many ways. It's not my intention to offend with the use of wrong terminology, and I apologize in advance. Feel free to share proper terms with me, but please remember I'm learning. :cool:

 
Huh. I'm actually only heard of 'pre-birth choice' in context of the LDS church. I never considered that other religions/spirituality have this. I don't have the right words (I have mild aphasia) to debate properly, but don't agree with your thinking. I don't see why people would choose to suffer than much, especially with the billions of people that are poor, starving, etc etc

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Re: Pre-birth choices and privilege
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2014, 03:00:51 pm »
Quote from: random417;156620
My question for you guys (especially the Social Justice advocates here), what does the concept of pre birth choice by your higher self do with the concept of privilege?

 
It strikes me that only a person with immense privilege on a world scale could come up with it and not recognise immediately how horrifyingly cruel it is.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

carillion

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Re: Pre-birth choices and privilege
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2014, 03:01:33 pm »
Quote from: random417;156620
So, in examining the concept of privilege, I've hit a ... thing. Discussions and things on privilege, from what I've seen, presupposes that your privilege status on both ends isn't something you choose.

My personal beliefs are that you DO choose the parents you're born to prior to your birth. In the same vein, PRIOR TO BIRTH you choose both physical gender and mental gender. Choosing your parents also to a point decides economic status.

My question for you guys (especially the Social Justice advocates here), what does the concept of pre birth choice by your higher self do with the concept of privilege?

By the way, I'm hardly an SJ expert... I know I don't have the proper vocabulary for this discussion in many ways. It's not my intention to offend with the use of wrong terminology, and I apologize in advance. Feel free to share proper terms with me, but please remember I'm learning. :cool:

First, I didn't realize that advocating for social justice was specific group thing ( I thought most people thought justice and equality for all a good thing and some people were more active than others) so I don't have specific terminology. So forgive my ignorance on that front.
On the question, it's an interesting one. My first reaction was "It's not the hand you're dealt, it's what you do with it (if you can-important caveat)" or in this case " What do you do with the hand you deal yourself". If someone chooses to be born into a family that is well to do or at least comfortable, are you intending to use that to further things for other people.
If not, wouldn't everyone choose wealthy or well positioned families  with super loving and nurturing parents?  Why would anyone chose to be born to some starving family in a developing country or be born to an abusive family. Now,maybe 'spirit baby' ( can't think of another term:) has designs on creating change and is willing to take the chance given they live to grow up (no guarantee there ). Or maybe spirit baby is making a choice based on the personalities of the parents, not their worldly status (which makes the choice of abusive parents even more problematical).

But people can lose their privilege as well.Does spirit baby know this before choosing?

But I'm still thinking that unless there were some 'plan'? , every baby spirit would choose food, security and a healthy environment. And even if there was a plan, one has a better chance to put it in action if one has access to the means.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 03:02:48 pm by carillion »

Sarah

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Re: Pre-birth choices and privilege
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2014, 03:02:37 pm »
Quote from: random417;156620
So, in examining the concept of privilege, I've hit a ... thing. Discussions and things on privilege, from what I've seen, presupposes that your privilege status on both ends isn't something you choose.

My personal beliefs are that you DO choose the parents you're born to prior to your birth. In the same vein, PRIOR TO BIRTH you choose both physical gender and mental gender. Choosing your parents also to a point decides economic status.

My question for you guys (especially the Social Justice advocates here), what does the concept of pre birth choice by your higher self do with the concept of privilege?

By the way, I'm hardly an SJ expert... I know I don't have the proper vocabulary for this discussion in many ways. It's not my intention to offend with the use of wrong terminology, and I apologize in advance. Feel free to share proper terms with me, but please remember I'm learning. :cool:

 

Well I don't believe we do make these choices before birth, the idea horrifies me quite frankly and can lead to victim blaming (as in "these bad things that happen are your fault because you chose this life")

I don't think its a concept that does or can have anything to do with social justice

Also if it were true why on earth would so many people choose to be born into horrible situations?
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random417

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Re: Pre-birth choices and privilege
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2014, 03:03:17 pm »
Quote from: Flame;156622
Huh. I'm actually only heard of 'pre-birth choice' in context of the LDS church. I never considered that other religions/spirituality have this. I don't have the right words (I have mild aphasia) to debate properly, but don't agree with your thinking. I don't see why people would choose to suffer than much, especially with the billions of people that are poor, starving, etc etc
The concept within my belief structure (in a nutshell, I don't want to over complicate with Hermetic ideas of unity) is that we all reincarnate several times to learn different lessons. Choosing to incarnate without a specific privilege then would be so we could learn a lesson through that experience
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

AL 1:42-44

Darkhawk

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Re: Pre-birth choices and privilege
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2014, 03:08:36 pm »
Quote from: random417;156626
Choosing to incarnate without a specific privilege then would be so we could learn a lesson through that experience

 
What lesson do you suppose is learned by the immense number of people who starve to death or die of disease in infancy?

"Wow, it sucks to starve to death.  But I guess statistically speaking I need to do it again a few more times to check"?
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

random417

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Re: Pre-birth choices and privilege
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2014, 03:09:35 pm »
Quote from: carillion;156624
First, I didn't realize that advocating for social justice was specific group thing ( I thought most people thought justice and equality for all a good thing and some people were more active than others) so I don't have specific terminology. So forgive my ignorance on that front.
On the question, it's an interesting one. My first reaction was "It's not the hand you're dealt, it's what you do with it (if you can-important caveat)" or in this case " What do you do with the hand you deal yourself". If someone chooses to be born into a family that is well to do or at least comfortable, are you intending to use that to further things for other people.
If not, wouldn't everyone choose wealthy or well positioned families  with super loving and nurturing parents?  Why would anyone chose to be born to some starving family in a developing country or be born to an abusive family. Now,maybe 'spirit baby' ( can't think of another term:) has designs on creating change and is willing to take the chance given they live to grow up (no guarantee there ). Or maybe spirit baby is making a choice based on the personalities of the parents, not their worldly status (which makes the choice of abusive parents even more problematical).

But people can lose their privilege as well.Does spirit baby know this before choosing?

But I'm still thinking that unless there were some 'plan'? , every baby spirit would choose food, security and a healthy environment. And even if there was a plan, one has a better chance to put it in action if one has access to the means.

On the specific terms thing, I'll use an imperfect metaphor that should carry my meaning... most of us can cook, but a chef is more likely to know like birnase (sp?) Sauce than someone who just cooks so they can eat. Spoons would be an example of a specialized vocavulary like I'm thinking of. Someone may have heard of it, but it's more likely the more exposure you have.

Again, it's about choosing to learn, but your post (and several others) came in while I was explaining... Feel free to ask for more clarification if needed
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

AL 1:42-44

carillion

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Re: Pre-birth choices and privilege
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2014, 03:12:36 pm »
Quote from: random417;156626
The concept within my belief structure (in a nutshell, I don't want to over complicate with Hermetic ideas of unity) is that we all reincarnate several times to learn different lessons. Choosing to incarnate without a specific privilege then would be so we could learn a lesson through that experience

I'm still wondering who would make the choice of being born into a dire environment. Either a very enlightened spirit with no fear of consequences ( but as far as I know the memory of previous incarnations is not accessible)  or the *worst* kind of dilettante.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 03:14:04 pm by carillion »

random417

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Re: Pre-birth choices and privilege
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2014, 03:31:01 pm »
Quote from: random417;156620
So, in examining the concept of privilege, I've hit a ... thing. Discussions and things on privilege, from what I've seen, presupposes that your privilege status on both ends isn't something you choose.

My personal beliefs are that you DO choose the parents you're born to prior to your birth. In the same vein, PRIOR TO BIRTH you choose both physical gender and mental gender. Choosing your parents also to a point decides economic status.

My question for you guys (especially the Social Justice advocates here), what does the concept of pre birth choice by your higher self do with the concept of privilege?

By the way, I'm hardly an SJ expert... I know I don't have the proper vocabulary for this discussion in many ways. It's not my intention to offend with the use of wrong terminology, and I apologize in advance. Feel free to share proper terms with me, but please remember I'm learning. :cool:
Well... this is proving quite unhelpful. My religious beliefs about choosing your birth conditions (and I believe that the higher self knows no more than what they'll be born to, not the future that will unfold) isn't going to change, and I wasn't asking to have it attacked.

What I'm looking for is this. Participate in the thought experiment with me. Assume that the soul does make the choice. Bluntly, my initial impression is that because each soul chooses a "difficulty level", lack of privilege can be seen as purely an additional challenge to players playing on higher difficulties. That part is debatable. I play on a fairly easy difficulty level, and I'm trying to decide how much is my responsibility, and how much of the things I do aren't things I'm required by ethics to do.

As a note, my thought now is that I'm not responsible for the choices others make. I do believe that treating others with respect is my responsibility, but as I didn't make others pre birth choice for them, do I actually have a responsibility to expand that... equality outside of my personal sphere?
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

AL 1:42-44

random417

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Re: Pre-birth choices and privilege
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2014, 03:38:31 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;156627
What lesson do you suppose is learned by the immense number of people who starve to death or die of disease in infancy?

"Wow, it sucks to starve to death.  But I guess statistically speaking I need to do it again a few more times to check"?
Also, the video game references come from an article that someone here pointed me to on another thread. I THINK it was Jack but I'm not sure. If it was, could you maybe link it for frame of reference? I'm on my phone and don't have access.

Using the video game analogy, haven't you ever jacked the difficulty on something all the way up? Knowing you'll loose, but wanting to try it anyway? I've done that
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

AL 1:42-44

random417

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Re: Pre-birth choices and privilege
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2014, 03:40:53 pm »
Quote from: random417;156635
Using the video game analogy, haven't you ever jacked the difficulty on something all the way up? Knowing you'll loose, but wanting to try it anyway? I've done that

Which I realized sounds really insensitive without context. The higher self would have a different viewpoint than the person once they're here... player vs. Character in our analogy
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

AL 1:42-44

Jenett

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Re: Pre-birth choices and privilege
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2014, 03:43:16 pm »
Quote from: random417;156633

As a note, my thought now is that I'm not responsible for the choices others make. I do believe that treating others with respect is my responsibility, but as I didn't make others pre birth choice for them, do I actually have a responsibility to expand that... equality outside of my personal sphere?

 
When you're playing with thought experiments, it's good to be aware when you're playing with a theory that has been used to support eugenics, forced sterilisation, and various other rather appalling things in history, and to treat it delicately.

Here's my take: you don't *know* you're right. (None of us can know, really). Given that, is it better to treat people well, to work towards equal meaningful opportunity? Or is it better to rest on one's inborn privilege?

I tend to think that learning how other people think, understanding what matters to people who have experiences that aren't mine can help them, but it also makes *me* a better person (and better at my job, and better at doing things I care about). So why wouldn't I?

Even if someone chose a more complex life to be born into, that doesn't preclude the rest of the caring world from reaching out and evening the playing field a bit.
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Sarah

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Re: Pre-birth choices and privilege
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2014, 03:44:15 pm »
Quote from: random417;156633


What I'm looking for is this. Participate in the thought experiment with me. Assume that the soul does make the choice.


I don't really see the point in participating in a though experiment that has  no application to the real world

Quote
As a note, my thought now is that I'm not responsible for the choices others make. I do believe that treating others with respect is my responsibility, but as I didn't make others pre birth choice for them, do I actually have a responsibility to expand that... equality outside of my personal sphere?

 
Well we are coming from utterly different places because I don't believe in pre birth choices so I can't say what decisions you should make regarding them. But if you think nothing going on in the world is your problem, then i am going to judge you on that

For myself a big part of my spiritual path is making the world a better place, so I feel that yes, I do have a responsibility to make society more equal.
Knowing when to use a shovel is what being a witch is all about. Nanny Ogg, Witches Abroad

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Re: Pre-birth choices and privilege
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2014, 03:44:26 pm »
Quote from: random417;156633
As a note, my thought now is that I'm not responsible for the choices others make. I do believe that treating others with respect is my responsibility, but as I didn't make others pre birth choice for them, do I actually have a responsibility to expand that... equality outside of my personal sphere?

 
This looks like you're asking if "So, you chose your difficulty level, and you chose to have a horrible, miserable existence.  Therefore, if I did anything to make the odds of people being stuck in horrible, miserable existences, I would be ruining your game" is a good cop-out on trying to make the world a less shitty place for the many, many people for whom it is shitty.

I hope I'm reading it wrong?
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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