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Author Topic: Heathen  (Read 6972 times)

Juniperberry

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Heathen
« on: August 06, 2014, 10:22:07 pm »
Lately I've talked a lot about how I'm reevaluating and deconstructing my beliefs. I stopped considering myself recon, then heathen, and finally settled on being simply "spiritual".

I still don't consider myself a recon anymore. For the last several years I was so focused on putting everything in my life into a heathen context, to "change my worldview", that I stopped connecting to those things that I had always found intuitively, naturally spiritual. And that's befriending my immediate world, where ever I may be. Anytime I move somewhere new the first thing I do is walk, walk, walk. I watch how the mountains catch the sunlight or I fall in love with a nook of trees behind a gas station. And it's these places that soothe me, make me feel at home, and give me a sense of belonging to a people and place.

And because of that I think I would consider myself a heathen still. And not because I believe in lore-Odin, lore-Thor, etc. I don't. Last night I tried to redefine what a god even means to me anymore and I realized the reason I feel so removed from lore-gods is because they are removed. They belong to the past, to internet debates, to an institution of belief. They aren't personal. They aren't home.

A god, to me, is exactly what I experience when I befriend my living world. A simple walk among the nature and architecture that I love brings me back to a sense of peace in times of stress, it gives me hope and comfort. These things make me feel connected to something greater and more beautiful.  They remind me of what's truly important. There's a spirit in these things that is Truth for me. And maybe someone's Truth was once called Thor, but that name is not the right name for me anymore. Those old names have come to mean something much bigger, I think, than what they ever truly were.

I've found that when I talk of these things, it's usually with other heathens that I communicate best. There seems to be an easier understanding of where we're each coming from spiritually that goes beyond the reconstructed institution of modern heathenry*. I'm not heathen because I believe in the rhetoric. I'm heathen because I believe in the people.

So, kind of mushy and dramatic. But oh well. :)










*By heathen institution I mean that which has become bigger than the individual people (reconstructions, reformists, what have you). I mean that which has stopped being local and organic and free and has become a system.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Fireof9

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Re: Heathen
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2014, 12:41:15 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;155010


So, kind of mushy and dramatic. But oh well. :)


Yeah it was...... wow and here I thought you were all tuff and shit ;)

Really that was an amazing post. I'm not sure if I agree that the Gods are any more removed than they ever were though. I think that maybe the ancient people that worshipped them in times of old felt them exactly that same way. In nature, in their surroundings and that's why those Gods have name places. They felt their presence in those places, cause its a great way for divinity to remind you that the "magic" is all around us. I can relate as I never feel so much in tune with my spirituality as I do when I am down at the river behind my house. Much more than when I have my nose in a book reading dissertations on what someone thinks the religions of old were. (I am not putting down or dismissing a scholarly approach btw, there is lots of great information to be learned and it can certainly be eye opening. I just have learned I like to experience things on my own as well).

I'm glad you have found your truth, your recent journey and doubts have mirrored my own in a way that was almost scary. By being open enough to post about it and bare your soul like that it has helped me face my own questions as well - thank you for that!

Quote from: Juniperberry;155010

*By heathen institution I mean that which has become bigger than the individual people (reconstructions, reformists, what have you). I mean that which has stopped being local and organic and free and has become a system.


I agree 1000000000000000%
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Juniperberry

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Re: Heathen
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2014, 01:25:23 am »
Quote from: Fireof9;155016
Really that was an amazing post. I'm not sure if I agree that the Gods are any more removed than they ever were though. I think that maybe the ancient people that worshipped them in times of old felt them exactly that same way. In nature, in their surroundings and that's why those Gods have name places. They felt their presence in those places, cause its a great way for divinity to remind you that the "magic" is all around us.

No, I agree. I think originally that that the names of the gods meant that as well. But that now, when those names are used (not the actual gods themselves), they mean something much more institutional. Which is why I'm distinguishing it as lore-Odin. I don't believe in lore-Odin and this book we all share. And I'm not saying it's crap. But that it's not the god anymore. I believe in the things that are special to me, that are gods right now.

Quote
I can relate as I never feel so much in tune with my spirituality as I do when I am down at the river behind my house. Much more than when I have my nose in a book reading dissertations on what someone thinks the religions of old were. (I am not putting down or dismissing a scholarly approach btw, there is lots of great information to be learned and it can certainly be eye opening. I just have learned I like to experience things on my own as well).

I think there needs to be those who don't research anything and go by pure gut, those who research everything and let it trickle down into livable spirituality, and then the middle ground...or should I say middle earth. ;) There needs to be more middle people. People for people. Not people who serve the gods, not people who serve their ancestors, but people who serve each other, right now.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 02:05:51 am by SunflowerP »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Faemon

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Re: Heathen
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2014, 01:26:04 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;155010
And because of that I think I would consider myself a heathen still. And not because I believe in lore-Odin, lore-Thor, etc. I don't. Last night I tried to redefine what a god even means to me anymore and I realized the reason I feel so removed from lore-gods is because they are removed. They belong to the past, to internet debates, to an institution of belief. They aren't personal. They aren't home.


I've been catching up on Joseph Campbell's Mythos (hosted by Susan Sarandon) and I thought it was interesting when he said, "When a deity like Yahweh in the Old Testament says 'I'm final', he is no longer transparent to transcendence. He is not, as the deities of the older cultures,  a personification of an energy which antecedes his personification. He says, 'I'm it.' And when the deity closes himself like that, we too are closed like that, so we're not open to transcendence, either--and you have a religion of worship." Whereas, when the deity opens, you have a religion of identification with the divine, and I can see that Campbell, while he was said to consider it inappropriate of Westerners to be looking to Eastern philosophy for spiritual fulfillment, appeared very much on the side of personal transcendence when he continued that, "We're particles of that mystery, that timeless, endless, everlasting mystery which pours forth from the abyss into the forms of the world."

That opacity to transcendence (whatever transcendence means, really--a personal journey to heroism?) is something that I sort of perceive to a smaller degree in the devotionals of paganism--which is completely fine, by the way, but it's just not for me. I'm a hubristic little hooded mage.

Quote
I'm not heathen because I believe in the rhetoric. I'm heathen because I believe in the people.


I agree, and say with all serenity...We are our deeds. The people are the living faith.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 01:27:31 am by Faemon »
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Juniperberry

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Re: Heathen
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2014, 01:47:10 am »
Quote from: Faemon;155021
I've been catching up on Joseph Campbell's Mythos (hosted by Susan Sarandon) and I thought it was interesting when he said, "When a deity like Yahweh in the Old Testament says 'I'm final', he is no longer transparent to transcendence. He is not, as the deities of the older cultures,  a personification of an energy which antecedes his personification. He says, 'I'm it.' And when the deity closes himself like that, we too are closed like that, so we're not open to transcendence, either--and you have a religion of worship." Whereas, when the deity opens, you have a religion of identification with the divine, and I can see that Campbell, while he was said to consider it inappropriate of Westerners to be looking to Eastern philosophy for spiritual fulfillment, appeared very much on the side of personal transcendence when he continued that, "We're particles of that mystery, that timeless, endless, everlasting mystery which pours forth from the abyss into the forms of the world."

That opacity to transcendence (whatever transcendence means, really--a personal journey to heroism?) is something that I sort of perceive to a smaller degree in the devotionals of paganism--which is completely fine, by the way, but it's just not for me. I'm a hubristic little hooded mage.

 

I agree, and say with all serenity...We are our deeds. The people are the living faith.


That's a really interesting angle. I'm kind of taking it to mean that rather than the gods saying "We are it", that we've said it of them and have made murky their transparency. Is that correct? That's a lot of food for thought, there.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Juniperberry

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Re: Heathen
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2014, 01:59:54 am »
Quote from: Fireof9;155016
I'm not sure if I agree that the Gods are any more removed than they ever were though.

Ah. I went back and I see what you mean. I said that they are removed now because they belong to the past...

Yeah, I'm not sure exactly how I could explain that. I still agree that maybe the gods were seen similarly to the way I've explained my divinity here, and the way you and Mega spoke in his thread, but I also think to try and call on those gods from that time isn't correct either. Does that make sense?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 02:00:40 am by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Faemon

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Re: Heathen
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2014, 04:39:38 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;155023
That's a really interesting angle. I'm kind of taking it to mean that rather than the gods saying "We are it", that we've said it of them and have made murky their transparency. Is that correct? That's a lot of food for thought, there.


Well, people would say it of them because of experiences that are very real (to the experiencer) and a belief system that creates a niche in which that sort of idea fits in quite snugly. So, if I say, "We've said it of them" then it's like saying that it's all made up...which, I'm rather open to now, although I don't really do much with that idea that it's all made up, but I remember not being there.

But for practical intents and purposes, yes, we've said it of them.

As for how murky the transparency is, we'll never transcend to the storm, or be the fates, or fire, to the nature and scale that are (place-held) by the gods, so unlike with virtue, I can understand the murkiness or separation--but it just struck me how that very separation could foster a practice of worship rather than coexistence, contrary to Cambell's assertion that the old gods were personifications of energy that anteceded personification. We'd still get them to say, "We're it" as in, "you stay on your side of divinity and we on ours". I'm not saying that we graduate into gods, or that we take on rude and dis-honorable attitudes...only that worship has made less sense to me lately too. The gods can be functions, stories about functions, heroes, personification...and/or people. At the same time. Analysis, compartmentalization, or even the opposite--just living the faith--all plays into that "opacity to transcend" to me.

Thanks for adding spice to my thought-food, there. ;)
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Re: Heathen
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2014, 08:27:05 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;155020
I think there needs to be those who don't research anything and go by pure gut, those who research everything and let it trickle down into livable spirituality, and then the middle ground...or should I say middle earth. ;) There needs to be more middle people. People for people. Not people who serve the gods, not people who serve their ancestors, but people who serve each other, right now.


You'd do rather well in Britain - there are an awful lot of Pagans here, of various stripes, who live their spirituality like this.

Along those lines: have you ever looked into revival (or British-style) druidry?
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Juniperberry

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Re: Heathen
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2014, 04:23:02 pm »
Quote from: Naomi J;155050
You'd do rather well in Britain - there are an awful lot of Pagans here, of various stripes, who live their spirituality like this.


I don't know. I lived in Germany for four years and only thought to look into Germanic paganism after moving to the Arizona desert. I'd probably be just as oblivious there. ;)

Quote
Along those lines: have you ever looked into revival (or British-style) druidry?

 

No, and I'm not sure if that's a road I'd want to take right now. It'd be all about learning a new mythic language and common influence. (I assume.)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Hyacinth Belle

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Re: Heathen
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2014, 06:24:55 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;155010
And because of that I think I would consider myself a heathen still. And not because I believe in lore-Odin, lore-Thor, etc. I don't.

Agnostic Heathen? Animist Heathen?...

Quote
Last night I tried to redefine what a god even means to me anymore and I realized the reason I feel so removed from lore-gods is because they are removed. They belong to the past, to internet debates, to an institution of belief. They aren't personal. They aren't home.

A god, to me, is exactly what I experience when I befriend my living world. A simple walk among the nature and architecture that I love brings me back to a sense of peace in times of stress, it gives me hope and comfort. These things make me feel connected to something greater and more beautiful.  They remind me of what's truly important.

I understand this too. Yet I believe the gods are real and present, but definitely more distant than this kind of immediate divine energy/feedback in one's environment to which you refer. And I don't think those two kinds of "gods" are mutually exclusive.

I believe in "lore Odin," a real and separate-but not immediate-god. But I also believe that "god"/divine energy extends beyond any particular deity and into the environment. This actually goes along nicely with the place name point made by Fireof9.
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Hyacinth Belle

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Re: Heathen
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2014, 06:31:12 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;155020
I think there needs to be those who don't research anything and go by pure gut, those who research everything and let it trickle down into livable spirituality, and then the middle ground...or should I say middle earth. ;) There needs to be more middle people. People for people. Not people who serve the gods, not people who serve their ancestors, but people who serve each other, right now.
I also believe in a middle road, in most all things, and I like your emphasis on the present and its people. You've talked about trying to "make / fit" a worldview and feeling that stress, but to put it simply, heathenry to me is about doing right actions and living with honor. Orthopraxy, not orthodoxy. I love that heathenry is about action, in other words, living--and to me that definitely means in the here and now.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 12:16:04 am by Hyacinth Belle »
"Silent and thoughtful a prince\'s son should be / and bold in fighting; / cheerful and merry every man should be / until he waits for death." ~ Havamal, stanza 15

Redfaery

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Re: Heathen
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2014, 07:35:07 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;155010
Lately I've talked a lot about how I'm reevaluating and deconstructing my beliefs. I stopped considering myself recon, then heathen, and finally settled on being simply "spiritual".

I still don't consider myself a recon anymore. For the last several years I was so focused on putting everything in my life into a heathen context, to "change my worldview", that I stopped connecting to those things that I had always found intuitively, naturally spiritual. And that's befriending my immediate world, where ever I may be. Anytime I move somewhere new the first thing I do is walk, walk, walk. I watch how the mountains catch the sunlight or I fall in love with a nook of trees behind a gas station. And it's these places that soothe me, make me feel at home, and give me a sense of belonging to a people and place.

And because of that I think I would consider myself a heathen still. And not because I believe in lore-Odin, lore-Thor, etc. I don't. Last night I tried to redefine what a god even means to me anymore and I realized the reason I feel so removed from lore-gods is because they are removed. They belong to the past, to internet debates, to an institution of belief. They aren't personal. They aren't home.

A god, to me, is exactly what I experience when I befriend my living world. A simple walk among the nature and architecture that I love brings me back to a sense of peace in times of stress, it gives me hope and comfort. These things make me feel connected to something greater and more beautiful.  They remind me of what's truly important. There's a spirit in these things that is Truth for me. And maybe someone's Truth was once called Thor, but that name is not the right name for me anymore. Those old names have come to mean something much bigger, I think, than what they ever truly were.

I've found that when I talk of these things, it's usually with other heathens that I communicate best. There seems to be an easier understanding of where we're each coming from spiritually that goes beyond the reconstructed institution of modern heathenry*. I'm not heathen because I believe in the rhetoric. I'm heathen because I believe in the people.

So, kind of mushy and dramatic. But oh well. :)


*By heathen institution I mean that which has become bigger than the individual people (reconstructions, reformists, what have you). I mean that which has stopped being local and organic and free and has become a system.

 
You sound like you experience your faith in a similar way to me, actually. If I understand you correctly (and I probably do not. Please forgive me. I can never understand anyone else when they try to communicate deeper things like this) you experience the numinous by simply letting it happen to you. Instead of striving to contact a god with prayers, or align your chakras, you find the sublime that exists all around us and just let yourself live in it.

I, too, have gone through an intense period of spiritual transformation over the past 3 weeks. Coming to Japan was like a rebirth for me, because...how else to say it? This is where my soul has come to rest, I guess you could say. Benzaiten-sama lives here. As far as I know, I feel the same draw to be here as some Brighid devotees feel toward Ireland. My Goddess is here. I am near her.

But it's not just that. I feel like every day, I've learned things that've made me question how I viewed my relationship with Her. This goes back to your point about names and how they bind us to certain views of deities. I was stuck for so long on what to call Her. I first approached Benten-sama, who answered me and let me know she was also Sarasvati...but not really Hindu Sarasvati. So from being the Buddhist Sarasvati, she descended into a mess of aliases. Is she Sarasvati? Benzaiten-Sama? Which character does she spell her name with? Are these avatars of Kannon also her?

I was stuck on the names, the superficial labels that humans have attached to a profound entity, and I ignored the more important part: the fact that She has allowed me to experience feelings that can only be described as sublime. I know I will never understand Her, or know Her "real" name. And I've finally realized (like you?) that I need to simply stop trying to poke around with labels and lore, and just start living.
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Juniperberry

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Re: Heathen
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2014, 10:42:32 pm »
Quote from: Hyacinth Belle;155091
I also believe in a middle road, in most all things, and I like your emphasis on the present and its people. You've talked about trying to "make / fit" a worldview and feeling that stress, but to put it simply, heathenry to me is about doing right actions and living with honor. Orthopraxy, not orthodoxy. I love that heathenry is about action, in other words, living--and to me that definitely means in the here and now.

I didn't really feel the stress of changing my worldview until after it had a negative impact on my life. I really enjoyed recon and found the new ideas exhilarating, but I also think I was in denial about how much of it really was reenactment for me. I was trying to make sure my deeds reflected the honorable deeds of the past. I was applying archaic codes of conduct to my twentieth century life and I lost a large bit of my own personal code of conduct in doing so.

That's NOT to stay that I think recon is bad, because I don't. I just think it wound up not being right for me...at least in the way that I had been doing it. I want to live in the here and now, too. :)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 10:50:28 pm by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Juniperberry

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Re: Heathen
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2014, 10:50:04 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;155099
You sound like you experience your faith in a similar way to me, actually. If I understand you correctly (and I probably do not. Please forgive me. I can never understand anyone else when they try to communicate deeper things like this)


Me neither!

Quote
you experience the numinous by simply letting it happen to you. Instead of striving to contact a god with prayers, or align your chakras, you find the sublime that exists all around us and just let yourself live in it.


*nods*

Quote
I, too, have gone through an intense period of spiritual transformation over the past 3 weeks. Coming to Japan was like a rebirth for me, because...how else to say it? This is where my soul has come to rest, I guess you could say. Benzaiten-sama lives here. As far as I know, I feel the same draw to be here as some Brighid devotees feel toward Ireland. My Goddess is here. I am near her.

But it's not just that. I feel like every day, I've learned things that've made me question how I viewed my relationship with Her. This goes back to your point about names and how they bind us to certain views of deities. I was stuck for so long on what to call Her. I first approached Benten-sama, who answered me and let me know she was also Sarasvati...but not really Hindu Sarasvati. So from being the Buddhist Sarasvati, she descended into a mess of aliases. Is she Sarasvati? Benzaiten-Sama? Which character does she spell her name with? Are these avatars of Kannon also her?

I was stuck on the names, the superficial labels that humans have attached to a profound entity, and I ignored the more important part: the fact that She has allowed me to experience feelings that can only be described as sublime. I know I will never understand Her, or know Her "real" name. And I've finally realized (like you?) that I need to simply stop trying to poke around with labels and lore, and just start living.


Absolutely. It's like when you see an actor in a certain role and then you can't picture them as anything else. I feel like there is an Odin, but that Snorri's version has kind of taken over the god part of it and now all I see is this character in a role.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

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Fireof9

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Re: Heathen
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2014, 01:26:07 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;155114

Absolutely. It's like when you see an actor in a certain role and then you can't picture them as anything else. I feel like there is an Odin, but that Snorri's version has kind of taken over the god part of it and now all I see is this character in a role.


I think that might be partially cause Snorri's version is a really powerful story that has really captivated people. The huge problem I see with that is that it describes a view of a deity from a time a very long time ago. It represents a culture long gone, with values and problems that are from a world view that was based on survival more than anything else. I think that applies to most mythology.

If you read deeply enough though, and I think lore-Odin is a great example of this, I don't see those Gods as being stagnant and being caught in their own mythology. I mean really Odin in mythology is all about growth and change and learning. So I thing the entity of Odin (or Thor, or Manannan or Morrigan or whoever) is likely still relevant, but I highly doubt they are the same as they were in the limited stories we have of them. I mean, just look at our own lives, are you the same person you were even five years ago? Really I know if people wrote the story of Fireof9 there would be a great deal of contradictions based on the period they wrote about. What I am trying to say in a long winded rambling sort of way, is that I agree that if I am to even try to relate to a god(s), to honour a god(s), I need to find where that God(s) fit into the world I live in.   And maybe focus a little less on Gods and more on the tangible magic of life around me.

I had an epiphany kinda last fall and its what set the seed for my evolution of spiritual thought here. I was sitting down by the river one night, there is a place I go and meditate and think and stuffs, and I was really seeking out an intense experience. I really wanted one of those mind blowing deep moments. I guess I got it but not as I expected. I realized that I was looking for something that I was sitting on. The earth, the river the trees, the deer watching me a hundred feet away........ that the spiritual, the "magic", that divine  essence was all around me. I was so busy looking for that bolt of lightning that I was completely missing it. It was not about Gods* or Goddesses* or rituals or recreating a time and a culture from long ago. It was about being in that moment. I of course tried to then turn that into something "religious" after that and kind of ruined it for myself, but it has still stuck with me and I guess now that the weather is nice and I am spending a ton of time at the river again it has reminded me of that. Hopefully this time I can take it for what it is and embrace this moment and this place.


** I was kind of seeking out a particular Goddess at that time, one that actually kind of embodies what I experienced. So maybe I found her relevance. If so, its much more powerfully simple yet exquisite than I expected.
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