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Author Topic: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?  (Read 21700 times)

carillion

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Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« on: August 01, 2014, 04:37:08 pm »
I was reading this story from the 'Guardian' (it was just a local story last week) : http://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2014/jul/30/why-the-fashion-headdress-must-be-stopped

and it got me thinking about this subject. Is adopting the dress of culture or religion that is not your own ever acceptable, or rather, when is it not 'appropriation'? In the article  the third objection ,that it reminds First Nations people of their historical oppression is at odds with the first assertion that adopting one style negates the differences between tribes and creates a homogeneous 'meta' Native.
Also, what are the differences , respect wise, in various fashions being or not being offensive? I think it was Madonna that popularized the wearing of the crucifix as a fashion accessory. When you think about it,the crucifix was an instrument of capitol punishment which , it is written,was used to put Jesus to death.
When I lived in a Muslim country, I dressed as a Muslim woman would. Since the dress codes in most Muslim countries are approximately 80% aspirational and 20% religion based, was I guilty of appropriation? It was extremely expedient and a safety precaution that I did so, but still - was it wrong? I was not Muslim or part of the culture in that country.
In terms of reminders of oppression, I've seen men wear the queue and hat associated with the very bloody suppression of the Han Chinese by the Qing dynasty. Yet this passes un-commented upon.
And so on.
So where does one draw the line?

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2014, 05:42:23 pm »
Quote from: carillion;154434
I was reading this story from the 'Guardian' (it was just a local story last week) : http://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2014/jul/30/why-the-fashion-headdress-must-be-stopped

and it got me thinking about this subject. Is adopting the dress of culture or religion that is not your own ever acceptable, or rather, when is it not 'appropriation'? In the article  the third objection ,that it reminds First Nations people of their historical oppression is at odds with the first assertion that adopting one style negates the differences between tribes and creates a homogeneous 'meta' Native.
Also, what are the differences , respect wise, in various fashions being or not being offensive? I think it was Madonna that popularized the wearing of the crucifix as a fashion accessory. When you think about it,the crucifix was an instrument of capitol punishment which , it is written,was used to put Jesus to death.
When I lived in a Muslim country, I dressed as a Muslim woman would. Since the dress codes in most Muslim countries are approximately 80% aspirational and 20% religion based, was I guilty of appropriation? It was extremely expedient and a safety precaution that I did so, but still - was it wrong? I was not Muslim or part of the culture in that country.
In terms of reminders of oppression, I've seen men wear the queue and hat associated with the very bloody suppression of the Han Chinese by the Qing dynasty. Yet this passes un-commented upon.
And so on.
So where does one draw the line?

 
When you lived in the area, adopting its customs wasn't appropriative. It was fitting in. If you were to start wearing a hijab without being Muslim while you're living in Canada, that would be appropriative. You'd be claiming an affiliation you don't possess and treating a religious symbol like a fashion accessory. The affiliation/standing problem is also why so many Natives/First Nation peoples resent the fashion of white people wearing war bonnets. Those are akin to wearing military medals you didn't earn.

The crucifix has been a longstanding symbol of Christianity, so Madonna wearing one was only offensive to those Christians who thought she was being sacrilegious in her behavior. I wore one when I was a Christian and nobody blinked.

Who's wearing the Han Dynasty stuff? Are they Chinese? If so, it's them working with their own history and it's not something worth commenting on from outside. If white people are doing it, that's appropriation. It'd be appropriation if black people did it, too, just so we're clear. I just can't see black people bothering when they have to fight battles over their hair for what it is.

When is it OK to wear stuff that isn't culturally yours? That can be a tricky question. The simplest approach is to only use it if you bought it from a native who meant to sell it to outsiders or if it was a gift to you from someone in the culture. Going into your nearest Indian saree store and buying a saree just because you feel like it is pushing into appropriation. Doing it so you can attend a Hindu ceremony without looking like a sore thumb is more respectful (and as an aside, I've seen Indians say it's better for non-Indians to adopt the salwar kameez instead of a saree in those cases due to the layers of meaning attached to the saree that don't associate with the salwar).

I hope this helps.

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2014, 07:07:40 pm »
Quote from: Lysana;154439
When you lived in the area, adopting its customs wasn't appropriative. It was fitting in. If you were to start wearing a hijab without being Muslim while you're living in Canada, that would be appropriative. You'd be claiming an affiliation you don't possess and treating a religious symbol like a fashion accessory.

 
Wut.

Headcoverings predate Islam. Nevermind that for a good many muslimas, it IS a fashion accessory.
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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2014, 07:36:52 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;154441
Wut.

Headcoverings predate Islam. Nevermind that for a good many muslimas, it IS a fashion accessory.

 
This is true, but I don't think it would be inaccurate to say that they are primarily associated with Islam in the Western world; some Jewish women cover, and some Christian women (though I think that's mostly an in-church thing), but I think most times one sees a woman covered in the west, they're going to be assumed to be Muslim, and in most cases that's going to be an accurate assumption.

Regardless, I think headcovering is an issue similar to bindis. They crop up now and again in the west as a fashion accessory- I remember they were huge when I was a tween, thanks to Gwen Stefani- and the Hindu world itself is divided as to whether it is always spiritually significant or whether it can be 'merely' a fashion accessory. I would still not wear one, as a white woman, despite how pretty I find them, because British imperialism and very modern racism have left many Hindu women embarrassed to display their heritage or afraid of facing racist repercussions. I could not in good conscious wear something that has been essentially denied them, whether there are religious aspects or not, and I think the same goes for head coverings of an identifiably Muslima style. These women face legal and social repercussions all over the western world for something of religious or cultural significance; for me, as a white woman, to adopt it would be a slap in the face.

The TL;DR, and getting back around to the OT: as a white American I have the ability to do largely as I please. I have a responsibility to not use that privilege to further the exploitation or denigration of the oppressed and marginalized, especially outside of its original context, especially for my own amusement.
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carillion

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2014, 08:07:23 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;154441
Wut.

Headcoverings predate Islam. Nevermind that for a good many muslimas, it IS a fashion accessory.



Very much so which was why I wrote 'aspirational'. I was looking at a snapshot album of the families I knew there and the mother (who was an *extremely* orthodox Muslim) had pictures very much like these ones from when she was a girl:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/04/25/once_upon_a_time_in_egypt

The Qur'an enjoins people to 'modesty', both men and women. I never saw a man in an unbuttoned shirt or in shorts ( even when it was 40C outside).

I was outfitted by friends there as I had arrived with very little notice and the people who were kind enough to outfit me requested that I continue to wear the clothing when I left the country. They knew I was not Muslim. I adopted the dress because I had to move through all strata of society.There is a huge illiteracy problem there and the people who were so basically got all their information from their local mosque and the calling of the Qur'an.
On the flip side, there were many stores selling clothes that completely covered a woman's body but were so tight fitting they were absolutely hoochy-momma and I would never have worn such revealing clothes.
Those black outfits one sees were rare and for a good reason. They were status symbols . Although they look the same to an untrained eye, there was a different style every season and they could cost up to 30,000 dollars per outfit. In a country where an educated middle class person earned between 400-600 dollars a month,that's a lot of money for *one* outfit. So basically, it was a brag.

Also, it is different depending on which country one was in. So thinking that that style of dress symbolizes all Muslim women commits the same error as supposing a feathered war bonnet symbolizes all First Nations people.

carillion

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2014, 08:15:07 pm »
Quote from: Juni;154442
despite how pretty I find them, because British imperialism and very modern racism have left many Hindu women embarrassed to display their heritage or afraid of facing racist repercussions. I could not in good conscious wear something that has been essentially denied them, whether there are religious aspects or not, and I think the same goes for head coverings of an identifiably Muslima style. These women face legal and social repercussions all over the western world for something of religious or cultural significance; for me, as a white woman, to adopt it would be a slap in the face.

The TL;DR, and getting back around to the OT: as a white American I have the ability to do largely as I please. I have a responsibility to not use that privilege to further the exploitation or denigration of the oppressed and marginalized, especially outside of its original context, especially for my own amusement.


First,I'm not understanding where a person's colour comes into it but I may have missed something. Also, where are Hindu women afraid to show their heritage? I've seen Indian and Pakistani women dressed this way since I was a child. Where and when has it been 'denied them'? Again, this may be a cultural difference but it makes me curious.  The people around me when I was in a Muslim country did not think it was a 'slap in the face' when I wore their style of dress: quite the opposite. Also, I had to go through a lot of surprises in terms of how I classed oppression and marginalization when I lived in there - it's...complicated. The 'oppression' isn't always where one thinks it is and the same goes for the power.

Juni

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2014, 08:23:40 pm »
Quote from: carillion;154445
Also, where are Hindu women afraid to show their heritage? I've seen Indian and Pakistani women dressed this way since I was a child. Where and when has it been 'denied them'? Again, this may be a cultural difference but it makes me curious.  The people around me when I was in a Muslim country did not think it was a 'slap in the face' when I wore their style of dress: quite the opposite.

 
I should have clarified; I was referring to dressing that way here in the States. Engaging in it in an area where it's the norm is a totally different animal.

As for where Hindu women feel marginalized, I can't point to a specific area in the US; it's something I've observed online, not in person.
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stephyjh

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2014, 12:45:52 am »
Quote from: Allaya;154441
Wut.

Headcoverings predate Islam. Nevermind that for a good many muslimas, it IS a fashion accessory.

 
Not every headcovering is a hijab, and imitating the dress of a minority group that already faces significant prejudice and stereotyping within the culture in which you live, when you don't have a good reason (such as the example given above, of getting a salwar kameez to wear to a Hindu ceremony), is appropriative. If your ethnic group has traditionally oppressed the ethnic group to which a symbol belongs, you don't need to take it upon yourself to adopt that group's dress or customs or symbols. It's a question of checking one's privilege.
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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2014, 01:03:15 am »
Quote from: stephyjh;154449
If your ethnic group has traditionally oppressed the ethnic group to which a symbol belongs, you don't need to take it upon yourself to adopt that group's dress or customs or symbols. It's a question of checking one's privilege.

 
Hanging this here, though the context might not fit.  Completely.

How does cultural appropriation fit into the discussion of an ethnic group's musical style?
I'm thinking about white people listening to hip-hop here.  Is that appropriation?  
What about when a white dude decides he can produce hip hop?  And becomes successful at it?
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stephyjh

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2014, 01:06:49 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;154450
Hanging this here, though the context might not fit.  Completely.

How does cultural appropriation fit into the discussion of an ethnic group's musical style?
I'm thinking about white people listening to hip-hop here.  Is that appropriation?  
What about when a white dude decides he can produce hip hop?  And becomes successful at it?

 
I think listening to hip-hop and producing are two different things. I feel like there's a certain degree of respect and deference that are owed to those who established the genre by any new people coming in, but especially from white artists and producers who are coming into a genre that has traditionally belonged to people of color.
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carillion

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2014, 02:16:35 am »
Quote from: stephyjh;154451
I think listening to hip-hop and producing are two different things. I feel like there's a certain degree of respect and deference that are owed to those who established the genre by any new people coming in, but especially from white artists and producers who are coming into a genre that has traditionally belonged to people of color.

 

I don't think appropriation *ever* comes into music as music always evolves as it incorporates novel forms. Bartok, Liszt, Debussy  all did so not to mention the New World Symphony of Dvorak!
I think there is a great deal of difference between outright stealing (example: cheesy movie 'Birth of the Blues' where the white dude steals a black inmates song and becomes famous ) . That's not attributing to source.Also ,the tendency of music companies to take Black music and have it performed by white groups without attribution or paying royalties. Again, that's just stealing.
But music has no colour or restrictive cultural 'ownership' when it comes to performing it , again,unless it's without attribution .
At least that's my opinion.

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2014, 03:01:17 am »
Quote from: carillion;154452
But music has no colour or restrictive cultural 'ownership' when it comes to performing it , again,unless it's without attribution.

 
In a world with Macklemore in it, I find I disagree.

(Note how Macklemore is a straight white man who got a lot of press and praise for rapping about "same love" while artists of color like Frank Ocean, who have been writing and performing music about their own queer life experiences, are still largely ignored by the white mainstream despite having won more than one Grammy award.)
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carillion

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2014, 04:19:54 am »
Quote from: Jack;154454
In a world with Macklemore in it, I find I disagree.

(Note how Macklemore is a straight white man who got a lot of press and praise for rapping about "same love" while artists of color like Frank Ocean, who have been writing and performing music about their own queer life experiences, are still largely ignored by the white mainstream despite having won more than one Grammy award.)


But that doesn't have to do with appropriation, that has to do with the recognition of individual musicians/performers. A lot of women sing songs written for a male singer and vice versa. A lot of non-Japanese women have sung the role of Madam Butterfly.

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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2014, 04:36:10 am »
Quote from: carillion;154456
But that doesn't have to do with appropriation, that has to do with the recognition of individual musicians/performers. A lot of women sing songs written for a male singer and vice versa. A lot of non-Japanese women have sung the role of Madam Butterfly.

 
So you're telling me that its totally coincidental that the straight white guy gets noticed for doing the thing that queer POC have been doing forever, just that the straight white guy happened, randomly, unpredictably, due to the whims of fate got noticed by the mainstream media?
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Re: Is 'cultural appropriation' selective?
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2014, 04:40:42 am »
Quote from: carillion;154456
But that doesn't have to do with appropriation, that has to do with the recognition of individual musicians/performers. A lot of women sing songs written for a male singer and vice versa. A lot of non-Japanese women have sung the role of Madam Butterfly.

 
Also, Madame Butterfly is an opera written by Italians, based on a short story by an American, which drew on a French novel and stories remembered by the author's sister who lived as a missionary in Japan. While I agree the issue of cultural appropriation at that point is complex, I think it has more to do with Long (the short story author) and Puccini (the opera composer) than with who has performed the role since.
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