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Author Topic: Re-exploring Wicca and religious witchcraft: where to go from here?  (Read 1977 times)

makaros

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(I wasn't sure where to post this - this seems the best place as the subject matter is more advanced than beginner and not so broad that it would fit well in the spirituality subforum.)

Hey all, been a long-time lurker and occasional poster here on the forums.  I’ve spent some time exploring different paths, traditions, and viewpoints in paganism and it’s been a wonderful and interesting journey.  That I am pagan in some sense is apparent to me.  I have also become much more comfortable with hard polytheism than archetypal explanations for deity and divinity (I still think there is a single Source – whether its pantheistic or panentheistic I’ve largely decided is beyond knowing, which I’m ok with), and I’ve sort of found a middle ground between reconstructionism and neopagan interpretations that I could work with.

The awkward thing, though, is now that I’ve found this sort of spiritual vantage point from which I can interact with the world, I’m having trouble finding a sense of community or even a good way to practice it.  When it comes to finding the right fit, I have significant concerns about appropriating a god or culturally significant practice for my own purposes.  I feel that in order to do something properly, I have to accept it in its own context rather than taking what pleases me and forgetting its significance out of convenience.  I’m also incredibly skeptical about developing a personal relationship with deities – it never sat right with me in Christianity and it still doesn’t.  How people seem to be in conversation with particular deities (so-and-so told me to do such-and-such) is something I just don’t understand, nor am I sure that gods can or should be invoked, worked with, etc.

I was into Norse and Anglo-Saxon polytheism for a while (hence the username) but it didn’t quite fit.  I started looking into Kemeticism and I've found it interesting.  Mostly, I long for the sort of beautiful associations I once had with Wicca, which sort of brings me to my point.  Some of the basic tenets of Wicca are appealing, and I’m looking to re-explore it from my more mature vantage point than what I was dealing with about 5 years ago.  Are there any good intermediate or advanced books on Wicca or religious witchcraft in general that anyone can point me to?  Or do you have any good ideas on  where to go from here?  (I’m also looking for people to poke holes in my ideas, give me more ideas to overcome problems with personal relationship with deity, etc).

Lastly, just want to say this is a great community and if something has come across as offensive, I didn’t mean it to be so.  We all have different viewpoints that come from our experiences and I understand that.  Mine have just led me to some conclusions that others likely disagree with. :)

Qumran Taj

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Re: Re-exploring Wicca and religious witchcraft: where to go from here?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2014, 10:10:17 am »
Quote from: makaroð;154314
(I wasn't sure where to post this - this seems the best place as the subject matter is more advanced than beginner and not so broad that it would fit well in the spirituality subforum.)

Hey all, been a long-time lurker and occasional poster here on the forums.  I’ve spent some time exploring different paths, traditions, and viewpoints in paganism and it’s been a wonderful and interesting journey.  That I am pagan in some sense is apparent to me.  I have also become much more comfortable with hard polytheism than archetypal explanations for deity and divinity (I still think there is a single Source – whether its pantheistic or panentheistic I’ve largely decided is beyond knowing, which I’m ok with), and I’ve sort of found a middle ground between reconstructionism and neopagan interpretations that I could work with.

The awkward thing, though, is now that I’ve found this sort of spiritual vantage point from which I can interact with the world, I’m having trouble finding a sense of community or even a good way to practice it.  When it comes to finding the right fit, I have significant concerns about appropriating a god or culturally significant practice for my own purposes.  I feel that in order to do something properly, I have to accept it in its own context rather than taking what pleases me and forgetting its significance out of convenience.  I’m also incredibly skeptical about developing a personal relationship with deities – it never sat right with me in Christianity and it still doesn’t.  How people seem to be in conversation with particular deities (so-and-so told me to do such-and-such) is something I just don’t understand, nor am I sure that gods can or should be invoked, worked with, etc.

I was into Norse and Anglo-Saxon polytheism for a while (hence the username) but it didn’t quite fit.  I started looking into Kemeticism and I've found it interesting.  Mostly, I long for the sort of beautiful associations I once had with Wicca, which sort of brings me to my point.  Some of the basic tenets of Wicca are appealing, and I’m looking to re-explore it from my more mature vantage point than what I was dealing with about 5 years ago.  Are there any good intermediate or advanced books on Wicca or religious witchcraft in general that anyone can point me to?  Or do you have any good ideas on  where to go from here?  (I’m also looking for people to poke holes in my ideas, give me more ideas to overcome problems with personal relationship with deity, etc).

Lastly, just want to say this is a great community and if something has come across as offensive, I didn’t mean it to be so.  We all have different viewpoints that come from our experiences and I understand that.  Mine have just led me to some conclusions that others likely disagree with. :)


I enjoyed your well written post.  Having said that, there is enough material here for a very long and involved discussion.  You touched on many points.  Let's say I focus on a tiny tidbit to kick the ball a step or two and see who else wants to play?

Re: the gods/deities.

There is a perpetual debate over whether the gods are actually, autonomous, sentient, independent beings OR simply aspects of ourselves that can be brought forth to speak 'as if' they be gods.  My own take on this is rather multidimensional and irrelevant to your your post.  The bottom line based on my own experience and those of countless numbers of my own students is that it IS possible to have a personal relationship with the gods.  WHAT and WHO those gods are is debatable, the relationships, on the other hand are very real and frequently helpful.

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"The ultimate secret to magickal power is to know that you have it" ~Qumran Taj http://www.qumrantaj.com

Qumran Taj

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Re: Re-exploring Wicca and religious witchcraft: where to go from here?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2014, 10:31:53 am »
Quote from: makaroð;154314
(I wasn't sure where to post this - this seems the best place as the subject matter is more advanced than beginner and not so broad that it would fit well in the spirituality subforum.)

Hey all, been a long-time lurker and occasional poster here on the forums.  I’ve spent some time exploring different paths, traditions, and viewpoints in paganism and it’s been a wonderful and interesting journey.  That I am pagan in some sense is apparent to me.  I have also become much more comfortable with hard polytheism than archetypal explanations for deity and divinity (I still think there is a single Source – whether its pantheistic or panentheistic I’ve largely decided is beyond knowing, which I’m ok with), and I’ve sort of found a middle ground between reconstructionism and neopagan interpretations that I could work with.

The awkward thing, though, is now that I’ve found this sort of spiritual vantage point from which I can interact with the world, I’m having trouble finding a sense of community or even a good way to practice it.  When it comes to finding the right fit, I have significant concerns about appropriating a god or culturally significant practice for my own purposes.  I feel that in order to do something properly, I have to accept it in its own context rather than taking what pleases me and forgetting its significance out of convenience.  I’m also incredibly skeptical about developing a personal relationship with deities – it never sat right with me in Christianity and it still doesn’t.  How people seem to be in conversation with particular deities (so-and-so told me to do such-and-such) is something I just don’t understand, nor am I sure that gods can or should be invoked, worked with, etc.

I was into Norse and Anglo-Saxon polytheism for a while (hence the username) but it didn’t quite fit.  I started looking into Kemeticism and I've found it interesting.  Mostly, I long for the sort of beautiful associations I once had with Wicca, which sort of brings me to my point.  Some of the basic tenets of Wicca are appealing, and I’m looking to re-explore it from my more mature vantage point than what I was dealing with about 5 years ago.  Are there any good intermediate or advanced books on Wicca or religious witchcraft in general that anyone can point me to?  Or do you have any good ideas on  where to go from here?  (I’m also looking for people to poke holes in my ideas, give me more ideas to overcome problems with personal relationship with deity, etc).

Lastly, just want to say this is a great community and if something has come across as offensive, I didn’t mean it to be so.  We all have different viewpoints that come from our experiences and I understand that.  Mine have just led me to some conclusions that others likely disagree with. :)

I enjoyed your well written post.  Having said that, there is enough material here for a very long and involved discussion.  You touched on many points.  Let's say I focus on a tiny tidbit to kick the ball a step or two and see who else wants to play?

Re: the gods/deities.

There is a perpetual debate over whether the gods are actually, autonomous, sentient, independent beings OR simply aspects of ourselves that can be brought forth to speak 'as if' they be gods.  My own take on this is rather multidimensional and irrelevant to your post.  The bottom line based on my own experience and those of countless numbers of my own students is that it IS possible to have a personal relationship with the gods.  WHAT and WHO those gods are is debatable, the relationships, on the other hand are very real and frequently helpful.  Naturally, every person is unique and some may be disinclined to interact with deities or any disembodied entities of any kind in any way.  This is a personal preference and far be it from me to nudge you one way or another!


http://www.qumrantaj.com
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:39:25 am by Qumran Taj »
"The ultimate secret to magickal power is to know that you have it" ~Qumran Taj http://www.qumrantaj.com

BrighidsAura

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Re: Re-exploring Wicca and religious witchcraft: where to go from here?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2014, 10:56:03 am »
Quote from: makaroð;154314
(I wasn't sure where to post this - this seems the best place as the subject matter is more advanced than beginner and not so broad that it would fit well in the spirituality subforum.)

Hey all, been a long-time lurker and occasional poster here on the forums.  I’ve spent some time exploring different paths, traditions, and viewpoints in paganism and it’s been a wonderful and interesting journey.  That I am pagan in some sense is apparent to me.  I have also become much more comfortable with hard polytheism than archetypal explanations for deity and divinity (I still think there is a single Source – whether its pantheistic or panentheistic I’ve largely decided is beyond knowing, which I’m ok with), and I’ve sort of found a middle ground between reconstructionism and neopagan interpretations that I could work with.

The awkward thing, though, is now that I’ve found this sort of spiritual vantage point from which I can interact with the world, I’m having trouble finding a sense of community or even a good way to practice it.  When it comes to finding the right fit, I have significant concerns about appropriating a god or culturally significant practice for my own purposes.  I feel that in order to do something properly, I have to accept it in its own context rather than taking what pleases me and forgetting its significance out of convenience.  I’m also incredibly skeptical about developing a personal relationship with deities – it never sat right with me in Christianity and it still doesn’t.  How people seem to be in conversation with particular deities (so-and-so told me to do such-and-such) is something I just don’t understand, nor am I sure that gods can or should be invoked, worked with, etc.

I was into Norse and Anglo-Saxon polytheism for a while (hence the username) but it didn’t quite fit.  I started looking into Kemeticism and I've found it interesting.  Mostly, I long for the sort of beautiful associations I once had with Wicca, which sort of brings me to my point.  Some of the basic tenets of Wicca are appealing, and I’m looking to re-explore it from my more mature vantage point than what I was dealing with about 5 years ago.  Are there any good intermediate or advanced books on Wicca or religious witchcraft in general that anyone can point me to?  Or do you have any good ideas on  where to go from here?  (I’m also looking for people to poke holes in my ideas, give me more ideas to overcome problems with personal relationship with deity, etc).

Lastly, just want to say this is a great community and if something has come across as offensive, I didn’t mean it to be so.  We all have different viewpoints that come from our experiences and I understand that.  Mine have just led me to some conclusions that others likely disagree with. :)

 
You really wrote a fantastic post. I can tell you put a lot of thought into this!

I see a lot of my own views in this and can relate to you a lot. My relationship with the gods is complex and ever-evolving and I don't know if I'll ever feel comfortable to say "yep. This is the truth and I know it."

Books on wicca....The only books that I really own right now are books on working with energy and other skill developing books rather than theological books. There was a text on high magick that my old high priestess used and I thought it was interesting but I don't really connect with the kabbalistic stuff so I sort of drifted away from it. Could be worth checking into, though. I forgot the title so I will find it and post it after work.

Freesia

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Re: Re-exploring Wicca and religious witchcraft: where to go from here?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2014, 09:16:44 pm »
Quote from: makaroð;154314

Hey all, been a long-time lurker and occasional poster here on the forums.  I’ve spent some time exploring different paths, traditions, and viewpoints in paganism and it’s been a wonderful and interesting journey.  That I am pagan in some sense is apparent to me.  I have also become much more comfortable with hard polytheism than archetypal explanations for deity and divinity (I still think there is a single Source – whether its pantheistic or panentheistic I’ve largely decided is beyond knowing, which I’m ok with), and I’ve sort of found a middle ground between reconstructionism and neopagan interpretations that I could work with.

The awkward thing, though, is now that I’ve found this sort of spiritual vantage point from which I can interact with the world, I’m having trouble finding a sense of community or even a good way to practice it.  When it comes to finding the right fit, I have significant concerns about appropriating a god or culturally significant practice for my own purposes.  I feel that in order to do something properly, I have to accept it in its own context rather than taking what pleases me and forgetting its significance out of convenience.  I’m also incredibly skeptical about developing a personal relationship with deities – it never sat right with me in Christianity and it still doesn’t.  How people seem to be in conversation with particular deities (so-and-so told me to do such-and-such) is something I just don’t understand, nor am I sure that gods can or should be invoked, worked with, etc.

I was into Norse and Anglo-Saxon polytheism for a while (hence the username) but it didn’t quite fit.  I started looking into Kemeticism and I've found it interesting.  Mostly, I long for the sort of beautiful associations I once had with Wicca, which sort of brings me to my point.  Some of the basic tenets of Wicca are appealing, and I’m looking to re-explore it from my more mature vantage point than what I was dealing with about 5 years ago.  Are there any good intermediate or advanced books on Wicca or religious witchcraft in general that anyone can point me to?  Or do you have any good ideas on  where to go from here?  (I’m also looking for people to poke holes in my ideas, give me more ideas to overcome problems with personal relationship with deity, etc).

 
Deities aren't for everyone. I wont say that they don't exist or don't matter just at this time I don't feel drawn to them. I am more of an animist. I've also interacted with enough ghosts to know that the distinction between realm of living and realm of dead is arbitrary. Like you I'm fiddling between areas of interest and leery of mixing up too many concepts. The best advise I could give you is to journal your thoughts and put together your own conclusions. Ask yourself the hard questions and see what answers you find.

As for finding books: research. Look up reading lists and research the authors. Read the comments from other people on the books you think you will enjoy or fill your need.     I keep an ongoing index of books on a variety of pagan topics and I add to that list and take away. I can't afford repeats so I must be nit-picky.

Micheál

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Re: Re-exploring Wicca and religious witchcraft: where to go from here?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2014, 10:17:43 am »
Quote from: makaroð;154314
Are there any good intermediate or advanced books on Wicca or religious witchcraft in general that anyone can point me to?  Or do you have any good ideas on  where to go from here?  (I’m also looking for people to poke holes in my ideas, give me more ideas to overcome problems with personal relationship with deity, etc).

The problem is that since Wicca is initiatory,  there's only so much you can learn from books without actually actively pursuing it, and going through the degrees, which is where the Craft is learned, so as fsr as books nothing really goes passed 101.

I suppose Wiccan-influenced, and other Religious Witchcraft paths can be different, but then again it depends on what tradition and deities you're interested in.
Semper Fidelis

makaros

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Re: Re-exploring Wicca and religious witchcraft: where to go from here?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2014, 07:18:10 pm »
Thank you all for your responses and sorry I'm just now replying!   I have been looking more deeply into Kemeticism and Greco-Egyptian polytheism and I feel very good about it, especially after doing a ritual earlier.  I'm going to continue pursuing that.  Interesting how a few more days of reading and searching can answer your own question of where to go, though some of your responses definitely helped. :P


Quote from: Micheál;154469
The problem is that since Wicca is initiatory,  there's only so much you can learn from books without actually actively pursuing it, and going through the degrees, which is where the Craft is learned, so as fsr as books nothing really goes passed 101.


I agree, which is I think where much of the problem lies.  No worries though, the internet is a wide and sometimes deep place. :)

Quote from: Qumran Taj
There is a perpetual debate over whether the gods are actually, autonomous, sentient, independent beings OR simply aspects of ourselves that can be brought forth to speak 'as if' they be gods. My own take on this is rather multidimensional and irrelevant to your your post. The bottom line based on my own experience and those of countless numbers of my own students is that it IS possible to have a personal relationship with the gods. WHAT and WHO those gods are is debatable, the relationships, on the other hand are very real and frequently helpful.


Thanks for this.  I guess opening myself up to new possibilities is really the trick here.  I'm sure by doing that I'll become less skeptical.


Quote from: BrighidsAura
You really wrote a fantastic post. I can tell you put a lot of thought into this!

I see a lot of my own views in this and can relate to you a lot. My relationship with the gods is complex and ever-evolving and I don't know if I'll ever feel comfortable to say "yep. This is the truth and I know it."


Thank you!  I guess that's the part of it that will never go away (doubt).  Learning to accept that is a big part of life, I feel, and I think some of my insecurities stem from not letting doubt flourish in its own space a little.  It sort of takes over rather than teaches.  I'm going to have to work on that more, I think.

Quote from: Freesia
Deities aren't for everyone. I wont say that they don't exist or don't matter just at this time I don't feel drawn to them. I am more of an animist. I've also interacted with enough ghosts to know that the distinction between realm of living and realm of dead is arbitrary. Like you I'm fiddling between areas of interest and leery of mixing up too many concepts. The best advise I could give you is to journal your thoughts and put together your own conclusions. Ask yourself the hard questions and see what answers you find.


That's actually really good advice and something I'll need to do more often (journaling).  Thank you!

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