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Author Topic: Resources on Netherlands tradition?  (Read 5480 times)

Scales

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Resources on Netherlands tradition?
« on: July 28, 2014, 08:53:10 pm »
I'm Dutch by heritage, Canadian otherwise, and I'd like to learn more about witchcraft in Holland and if there are any resources on folk tradition and so on. I've been using google but not finding much, especially not in english.

I have read a plethora of dutch fairy stories and folk tales and an alright grip on history, so I've got an inkling about the significance of flax, of the polders and dykes/rebuilt land and deforestation, the Norse and Friesian influences (especially Woden), and of course Sinter Klaas, but that still isn't much.

Any help would be appreciated, be it pointing me toward books or websites (free preferred, but I'd buy it if it's a good book), letting me know your family's traditions/your UPG, or anything else.

I'm not necessarily planning on getting into ancestor worship, but I'd like to learn more about my historical and cultural roots, and my Oma and Opa both are not around and were very Christian, so I don't really have anyone to ask.

Ingo

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Re: Resources on Netherlands tradition?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2014, 06:55:04 am »
Quote from: Scales;154239
.....I'd like to learn more about witchcraft in Holland....

 
I believe ‘The Athlone History of Witchcraft and Magic in Europe – volume 6 The Twentieth Century’, cover witchcraft in the Netherlands.
If I remember correctly, for it was a long time ago when I read it, there were only cunning men and wise women combating imaginary witches and witchcraft, just as you had in Britain.
I think that what you’ll find in the Netherlands these days is imported modern Wicca and its derivatives.

Amphibian

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Re: Resources on Netherlands tradition?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2014, 09:36:26 am »
Quote from: Scales;154239
I'm Dutch by heritage, Canadian otherwise, and I'd like to learn more about witchcraft in Holland and if there are any resources on folk tradition and so on. I've been using google but not finding much, especially not in english.

I have read a plethora of dutch fairy stories and folk tales and an alright grip on history, so I've got an inkling about the significance of flax, of the polders and dykes/rebuilt land and deforestation, the Norse and Friesian influences (especially Woden), and of course Sinter Klaas, but that still isn't much.

Any help would be appreciated, be it pointing me toward books or websites (free preferred, but I'd buy it if it's a good book), letting me know your family's traditions/your UPG, or anything else.

I'm not necessarily planning on getting into ancestor worship, but I'd like to learn more about my historical and cultural roots, and my Oma and Opa both are not around and were very Christian, so I don't really have anyone to ask.

 
Somewhat of a similar situation here; while my family has significant Dutch ancestry (reflected in, among other things, our surnames), it's been long enough since we came over that we've all thoroughly Americanized.  Which is to say; don't have much of anything to contribute at the moment, but would be cheerfully interested in anything that you find.
All knowledge is worth having.
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Scales

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Re: Resources on Netherlands tradition?
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2014, 02:47:27 pm »
Quote from: Ingo;163612
I believe ‘The Athlone History of Witchcraft and Magic in Europe – volume 6 The Twentieth Century’, cover witchcraft in the Netherlands.
If I remember correctly, for it was a long time ago when I read it, there were only cunning men and wise women combating imaginary witches and witchcraft, just as you had in Britain.
I think that what you’ll find in the Netherlands these days is imported modern Wicca and its derivatives.
Thank you, this is very helpful! Off to see if I can find a copy.

ETA- Holy crap. 12 GBP on amazon UK, 150 CAD on amazon Canada. To the library, then.

Quote from: Amphibian;163618
Somewhat of a similar situation here; while my family has significant Dutch ancestry (reflected in, among other things, our surnames), it's been long enough since we came over that we've all thoroughly Americanized.  Which is to say; don't have much of anything to contribute at the moment, but would be cheerfully interested in anything that you find.

Ah, yes. My Oma and my dad's oldest sibling moved here from Holland, so it's a little less far back for me, but Oma has alzheimers, and they're all very religious so I don't think having more recent ancestry is any more helpful.

Although it is absolutely not a historical source and I have no idea yet if the stories are actually well known, I enjoyed reading Dutch Tales for Young Folks, if you want to check it out. I find fairy tales interesting as tools, since they give an idea of who are seen as recognizable characters and archetypes.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 02:49:25 pm by Scales »

Caleb Oak

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Re: Resources on Netherlands tradition?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2014, 03:16:54 pm »
Quote from: Scales;154239
I'm Dutch by heritage, Canadian otherwise, and I'd like to learn more about witchcraft in Holland and if there are any resources on folk tradition and so on. I've been using google but not finding much, especially not in english.

I have read a plethora of dutch fairy stories and folk tales and an alright grip on history, so I've got an inkling about the significance of flax, of the polders and dykes/rebuilt land and deforestation, the Norse and Friesian influences (especially Woden), and of course Sinter Klaas, but that still isn't much.

Any help would be appreciated, be it pointing me toward books or websites (free preferred, but I'd buy it if it's a good book), letting me know your family's traditions/your UPG, or anything else.

I'm not necessarily planning on getting into ancestor worship, but I'd like to learn mo
re about my historical and cultural roots, and my Oma and Opa both are not around and were very Christian, so I don't really have anyone to ask.

 The Netherlands and Norse paganism?
I dont see the link.
Can you explain that?

Scales

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Re: Resources on Netherlands tradition?
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2014, 03:43:52 pm »
Quote from: Thrak;163650
The Netherlands and Norse paganism?
I dont see the link.
Can you explain that?


Forgive me for using wikipedia, but if I didn't I would have to buy textbooks, and then quoting them here would be a copyright issue anyway. These are the easiest couple things to pull up, as well as among the easier to read, although leafing out from them, there is more, not just on wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology_in_the_Low_Countries#Deities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingaevones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%8Dden

I can't tell you to what degree Norse deities and tradition were used or worshipped, and of course, some of this is a bit like differentiating Greek vs Roman gods, but they were most certainly aware and inclusive of Norse mythology, pre- and post-Christianity.

As well as that, Griffis references Freya and Odin repeatedly in the link I gave in my last post, although of course that is not very historical.

The Netherlands are very close to Scandinavia geographically, so I find this understandable, although again, I don't know what degree this was to, and probably never will.

And please note that I am not claiming that Norse influence was the only influence, or even the largest- just that it is what I was aware of, and that it is there.

Chabas

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Re: Resources on Netherlands tradition?
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2014, 03:50:01 pm »
Quote from: Scales;163659


 
I've been doing some quick googling around - life's busy enough so a more thorough search is rather beyond me atm. Most Dutch heathen groups seems to religiously indeed focus on Norse paganism, essentially. While it might be out there, I'm having a hard time finding anything specifically Dutch - but then, around that time, there wouldn't really have been a specifically Dutch population.

The one tidbit I CAN offer is that my history classes mentioned Nehalennia as a goddess who seemed specific to the area we now know as the Netherlands. Keep in mind that my highschool days are a long time ago, but the name might be of help in searching out some more specific stuff.

--Chabas

Caleb Oak

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Re: Resources on Netherlands tradition?
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2014, 04:14:43 pm »
Quote from: Chabas;163664
I've been doing some quick googling around - life's busy enough so a more thorough search is rather beyond me atm. Most Dutch heathen groups seems to religiously indeed focus on Norse paganism, essentially. While it might be out there, I'm having a hard time finding anything specifically Dutch - but then, around that time, there wouldn't really have been a specifically Dutch population.

The one tidbit I CAN offer is that my history classes mentioned Nehalennia as a goddess who seemed specific to the area we now know as the Netherlands. Keep in mind that my highschool days are a long time ago, but the name might be of help in searching out some more specific stuff.

--Chabas
What?
The north was based on Germanic paganism and the south on Celtic Paganism.
Its in all my books and on wikipedia.
The vikings did not show up until after Charlamagne...
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 04:15:58 pm by Thrak »

Scales

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Re: Resources on Netherlands tradition?
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2014, 04:27:42 pm »
Quote from: Chabas;163664
The one tidbit I CAN offer is that my history classes mentioned Nehalennia as a goddess who seemed specific to the area we now know as the Netherlands. Keep in mind that my highschool days are a long time ago, but the name might be of help in searching out some more specific stuff.

 
I caught that name somewhere, I'll have to look into it more.

Ingo

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Re: Resources on Netherlands tradition?
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2014, 04:40:41 pm »
Quote from: Scales;163644

ETA- Holy crap. 12 GBP on amazon UK, 150 CAD on amazon Canada. To the library, then.


Try ABE Books for The Athlone History of Witchcraft & Magic in Europe. They have a couple of second-hand copies for a lot less.

Amphibian

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Re: Resources on Netherlands tradition?
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2014, 04:51:43 pm »
Quote from: Thrak;163673
What?
The north was based on Germanic paganism and the south on Celtic Paganism.
Its in all my books and on wikipedia.
The vikings did not show up until after Charlamagne...

Which books?  Wikipedia is a decent enough starting point, but I (and Scales) are looking for a more in-depth and nuanced discussion than its format is generally capable of providing.

Also, I believe it's worth noting what timeframe one is considering; Chabas' post seems (to me) to be commenting on modern groups, which may or may not bear any resemblance to historical distributions. (I'd expect there to be some correlation, but folks do move around.)
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Re: Resources on Netherlands tradition?
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2014, 04:57:30 pm »
Quote from: Thrak;163673
What?
The north was based on Germanic paganism and the south on Celtic Paganism.
Its in all my books and on wikipedia.
The vikings did not show up until after Charlamagne...

'Celtic Paganism' is not one single thing. There were many tribes which are sometimes called Celtic (though they were incredibly varied). They had many, many different religious practices. The same goes for Norse and Germanic practices. There area would not have been as easily divided as 'one thing in the north, one thing in the south'.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 04:58:27 pm by Naomi J »
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Caleb Oak

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Re: Resources on Netherlands tradition?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2014, 04:59:51 pm »
Quote from: Amphibian;163682
Which books?  Wikipedia is a decent enough starting point, but I (and Scales) are looking for a more in-depth and nuanced discussion than its format is generally capable of providing.

Also, I believe it's worth noting what timeframe one is considering; Chabas' post seems (to me) to be commenting on modern groups, which may or may not bear any resemblance to historical distributions. (I'd expect there to be some correlation, but folks do move around.)

 All my dutch history books and al my history classes.
I could be wrpng but i have never seen any mention of Norse paganism anywhere in my country.

Scales

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Re: Resources on Netherlands tradition?
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2014, 05:01:07 pm »
Quote from: Ingo;163678
Try ABE Books for The Athlone History of Witchcraft & Magic in Europe. They have a couple of second-hand copies for a lot less.

 
Thank you! I will still check the library, because of course checking for free would be nice, but if I can get one affordably that would be great.

Scales

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Re: Resources on Netherlands tradition?
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2014, 05:10:54 pm »
Quote from: Amphibian;163682
Which books?  Wikipedia is a decent enough starting point, but I (and Scales) are looking for a more in-depth and nuanced discussion than its format is generally capable of providing.

Also, I believe it's worth noting what timeframe one is considering; Chabas' post seems (to me) to be commenting on modern groups, which may or may not bear any resemblance to historical distributions. (I'd expect there to be some correlation, but folks do move around.)

To the former, yes, exactly.

On the bottom, just to note for the thread, I'm interested in both, although the historical part especially, and how it influenced modern paganism there (or culture in general). It's still important to note the timeframe, of course, but I wanted to make it clear that modern is good too.
 
Quote from: Thrak;163685
All my dutch history books and al my history classes.
I could be wrpng but i have never seen any mention of Norse paganism anywhere in my country.

Saying it's in all the books isn't really helpful (and if we were arguing, which we're not, the fallacious nature of that phrase would be an issue), and it also doesn't mean a lot for history books to exclude things (that's what they're famous for, really). Do you know any of the specific books? Did they talk about paganism more than a quick mention that it existed? (and if they did talk about it in depth, I would be especially interested in reading them).

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