Author Topic: Oghma and Ogmios (Read 2241 times)

MattyG · « **on:** July 18, 2014, 12:51:09 am »

Recently I've been thinking about working a god of words into my practice (I'm working on my Master's Degree in English lit and also teaching freshman level writing and lit classes), and I was wondering if anyone has any advice on working with Oghma and/or Ogmios? I know that Oghma is liked to language by his sword that recounts its deeds and his inventing the Ogham alphabet, and Ogmios is a god of eloquence, so I'm hoping they might be able to help me focus on my teaching and writing. I have a few specific questions.

1) I know there's some debate about how closely related these two gods are, but that they might be different cultural interpretations of the same god (like Lugus/Lugh/and Llew). Does anyone have any good sources on the state of the debate? Individually there's very little material on either of them in the surviving myth, and myth is really what helps me connect to my gods, so if I could view them as the same deity then it would help me to get a better sense of their personality. I'm currently somewhere between hard and soft polytheism, so I don't think I really want to conflate them if there's not some solid ground for it.

2) Do any of you have personal experience or advice for working with either or both of them? Anything helps.

Thanks for the help.

Seren · « **Reply #1 on:** August 01, 2014, 06:27:57 am »

Quote from: MattyG;153216

Recently I've been thinking about working a god of words into my practice (I'm working on my Master's Degree in English lit and also teaching freshman level writing and lit classes), and I was wondering if anyone has any advice on working with Oghma and/or Ogmios? I know that Oghma is liked to language by his sword that recounts its deeds and his inventing the Ogham alphabet, and Ogmios is a god of eloquence, so I'm hoping they might be able to help me focus on my teaching and writing. I have a few specific questions.

1) I know there's some debate about how closely related these two gods are, but that they might be different cultural interpretations of the same god (like Lugus/Lugh/and Llew). Does anyone have any good sources on the state of the debate? Individually there's very little material on either of them in the surviving myth, and myth is really what helps me connect to my gods, so if I could view them as the same deity then it would help me to get a better sense of their personality. I'm currently somewhere between hard and soft polytheism, so I don't think I really want to conflate them if there's not some solid ground for it.

2) Do any of you have personal experience or advice for working with either or both of them? Anything helps.

Thanks for the help.

Oghma is an Irish deity, Ogmios is Gaulish. Although they clearly have the same linguistic roots to their names, they're deities from different cultures and you can only really get a good idea of them in the context of their own cultures.

BrighidsAura · « **Reply #2 on:** August 01, 2014, 07:02:28 am »

Quote from: MattyG;153216

(I'm working on my Master's Degree in English lit

Let's be friends. That's what my degree is in! I'm planning on going back to get my master's as well

I personally have always gotten good vibes from Ogma. I am a soft polytheist and it could be that I get good vibes from him because I associate a certain energy to the wise figures. Nevertheless, I've considered adding him to the gods that I work with but brighid--being my patroness and having poetry as one of her attributes sort of fills that role already for me.

MattyG · « **Reply #3 on:** August 01, 2014, 03:38:34 pm »

Quote from: Seren;154418

Oghma is an Irish deity, Ogmios is Gaulish.

I'm not entirely uneducated on either deity, thank you.

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Although they clearly have the same linguistic roots to their names,

Something I find a compelling reason to believe that they may in fact be the same deity, just as I don't assume that someone pronouncing my name with a different accent is speaking of an entirely different person.

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they're deities from different cultures and you can only really get a good idea of them in the context of their own cultures.

Yes, I am familiar with the strict hard-polytheistic/Reconstructionist perspective on the nature of the divine. I can't say that I find it entirely convincing or traditional. Syncretism has been practiced by pagans and polytheists for millenia, including the Celts. I'm looking here for resources to expand my understanding. Not blinders to limit my vision. If a respectful syncretism can better help me understand my relationship to the gods, then I will employ syncretism.

MattyG · « **Reply #4 on:** August 01, 2014, 03:42:05 pm »

Quote from: BrighidsAura;154419

I personally have always gotten good vibes from Ogma. I am a soft polytheist and it could be that I get good vibes from him because I associate a certain energy to the wise figures. Nevertheless, I've considered adding him to the gods that I work with but brighid--being my patroness and having poetry as one of her attributes sort of fills that role already for me.

Thank you. I definitely understand Brighid filling that role. I'm trying to focus more on my understandings of rhetoric and literature currently, and I feel that Ogmios (with his ability to bind people with his words) and Oghma (with his creation of the Irish alphabet) might be better patrons for that focus.

Nyktipolos · « **Reply #5 on:** August 01, 2014, 04:43:22 pm »

Quote from: MattyG;154431

Yes, I am familiar with the strict hard-polytheistic/Reconstructionist perspective on the nature of the divine. I can't say that I find it entirely convincing or traditional. Syncretism has been practiced by pagans and polytheists for millenia, including the Celts. I'm looking here for resources to expand my understanding. Not blinders to limit my vision. If a respectful syncretism can better help me understand my relationship to the gods, then I will employ syncretism.

I don't think it's entirely necessary to dismiss the idea out of hand, though, or acknowledge it entirely as a "hard polytheist/reconstructionist perspective". Regardless of if the deity is the same (and he/they may as well be), they were also acknowledged in different ways, and by looking at him/them from that culture's standpoint, it can give you a different insight into the deity itself.

I view Saint Brighid and Bride as the same being, but when doing research on them or just trying something new, I can approach her in different ways. How Irish or Scottish Christians addressed the Saint is just simply a different approach (for my own research and opinions -- I am not saying this is the same for everything or The Truth (tm)) and a different way for me to understand Bride, and vice versa.

MattyG · « **Reply #6 on:** August 01, 2014, 10:06:03 pm »

Quote from: Nyktipolos;154435

I don't think it's entirely necessary to dismiss the idea out of hand,

I'm not dismissing it out of hand. I considered the proposition before even making the post and dismissed it through careful deliberation. I then attempted to word my questions in a way to dissuade that kind of answer since it doesn't help me. I specifically asked if anyone has any resources or experience with either/both gods, not for an automatic dismissal of my proposition.

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acknowledge it entirely as a "hard polytheist/reconstructionist perspective".

Well, that's what it is. Especially as I'm aware of the fact that Seren is part of a Gaelic Reconstructionist organization.

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Regardless of if the deity is the same (and he/they may as well be), they were also acknowledged in different ways, and by looking at him/them from that culture's standpoint, it can give you a different insight into the deity itself.

Indeed. And I've already done some research about them from their individual culture's perspectives. I already know about those issues. I'm currently looking for different information. Hence my request for information about the gods, the debate surrounding them, and individual's experiences with them. Telling me my question is a waste of time doesn't really help me much.

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I am not saying this is the same for everything or The Truth (tm)) and a different way for me to understand Bride, and vice versa.

Agreed. And that's what I'm looking for on this matter. I just personally get a little offended when people dismiss my questions and answer with their own little agendas. Like if I asked a question about worshiping Vishnu and somebody just posted "you should only be worshiping Jesus."

Seren · « **Reply #7 on:** August 02, 2014, 07:52:06 pm »

Quote from: MattyG;154448

Well, that's what it is. Especially as I'm aware of the fact that Seren is part of a Gaelic Reconstructionist organization.

o.O My apologies if my input isn't welcome.

MattyG · « **Reply #8 on:** August 05, 2014, 12:46:19 pm »

Quote from: Seren;154490

o.O My apologies if my input isn't welcome.

It's alright. This is just how the conversation went from my perspective:

Me: I'm interested in better understanding [Oghma and Ogmios]. I've tried using [Cultural Reconstructionism], but it hasn't really helped me. I'm interested in trying [syncretism]. Does anyone have any advice?

You: [Cultural Reconstructionism] is the only way to understand [Oghma and Ogmios]. [Syncretism] is a false method.

Perhaps this is just my misunderstanding of the tone, but you didn't really make an argument. Just an assertion. Imagine if the conversation had taken the same form but with a different topic.

Me: I'm interested in better understanding [the Divine]. I've tried using [Christianity], but it hasn't really helped me. I'm interested in trying [Gaelic Polytheism]. Does anyone have any advice?

Someone else: [Christianity] is the only way to understand [the Divine]. [Gaelic Polytheism] is a false method.

Now, the responder is fully within their rights to believe and to assert that, but would you say that they're really being helpful to or respectful of the person making the request for information? At the very least they should make a coherent argument for their viewpoint, rather just making a dogmatic assertion.

Guinevere · « **Reply #9 on:** September 30, 2014, 12:51:09 pm »

Quote from: MattyG;153216

1) I know there's some debate about how closely related these two gods are, but that they might be different cultural interpretations of the same god (like Lugus/Lugh/and Llew). Does anyone have any good sources on the state of the debate? Individually there's very little material on either of them in the surviving myth, and myth is really what helps me connect to my gods, so if I could view them as the same deity then it would help me to get a better sense of their personality. I'm currently somewhere between hard and soft polytheism, so I don't think I really want to conflate them if there's not some solid ground for it.

Some times ago I found informations about Ogmios and Oghma in "Religion of the Ancient Celts" by J.A. MacCulloch:
"Another god, Ogmíos, a native god of speech, who draws men by chains fastened to the tip of his tongue, is identified in Lucian with Heracles, and is identical with the Goidelic Ogma. Eloquence and speech are important matters among primitive peoples, and this god has more likeness to Mercury as a culture-god than to Heracles, Greek writers speaking of eloquence as binding men with the chains of Hermes.
[...]Another son of Brigit's was Ogma, master of poetry and inventor of ogham writing, the word being derived from his name. It is more probable that Ogma's name is a derivative from some word signifying "speech" or "writing," and that the connection with "ogham" may be a mere folk-etymology. Ogma appears as the champion of the gods, a position given him perhaps from the primitive custom of rousing the warriors' emotions by eloquent speeches before a battle. Similarly the Babylonian Marduk, "seer of the gods," was also their champion in fight. Ogma fought and died at Mag-tured; but in other accounts he survives, captures Tethra's sword, goes on the quest for Dagda's harp, and is given a síd after the Milesian victory. Ogma's counterpart in Gaul is Ogmíos, a Herakles and a god of eloquence, thus bearing the dual character of Ogma, while Ogma's epithet grianainech, "of the smiling countenance," recalls Lucian's account of the "smiling face" of Ogmíos.257 Ogma's high position is the result of the admiration of bardic eloquence among the Celts, whose loquacity was proverbial, and to him its origin was doubtless ascribed, as well as that of poetry. The genealogists explain his relationship to the other divinities in different ways, but these confusions may result from the fact that gods had more than one name, of which the annalists made separate personalities. Most usually Ogma is called Brigit's son. Her functions were like his own, but in spite of the increasing supremacy of gods over goddesses, he never really eclipsed her."

The information about Ogmios are mostly based on the depiction made by Lucian of Samosata, who identified him as Herakle because both carried a bow, a club and wore a lion skin, but unlike the Greek demi-God, Ogmios carried with him the image of the champion, but his strength lies also in the power of words and eloquence.
It is also associated with the idea of binding both for the chains that connected people's ears with his mouth and for the ethymology of his name meaning "path" or "guide", also leading to the suggestion of him as psychopomp (as syggested by Patricia Monaghan in her dictionary of celtic myths).
Unfortunately there is no mythological evidence for Ogmios while we found Oghma in the Mythological Cycle, as he took place in the second battle of Mag Tuiredh and also in the episode of the coming of Lugh at Tara.

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2) Do any of you have personal experience or advice for working with either or both of them?

The idea that both deities always gave me is that of responsability: the one we engage to when we start working with the power of the words and the way we use this knowledge that we gain. It is also linked with the idea of champion and protector of people, the idea of justice and fairness and all the implications that can come to your mind.

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Author Topic: Oghma and Ogmios (Read 2241 times)

MattyG

Oghma and Ogmios

Seren

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BrighidsAura

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MattyG

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MattyG

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Nyktipolos

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MattyG

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Seren

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MattyG

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