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Author Topic: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.  (Read 5244 times)

Demeter Hedgewitch

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Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« on: June 30, 2014, 10:25:23 am »
I know that I most likely haven't posted this in the right section and I'm sorry. But someone told me that there's no such thing as black and white magic, their the same. Do you agree with this? Is there such a thing as black and white magic?

Sarah

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2014, 10:36:18 am »
Quote from: Demeter Hedgewitch;151750
I know that I most likely haven't posted this in the right section and I'm sorry. But someone told me that there's no such thing as black and white magic, their the same. Do you agree with this? Is there such a thing as black and white magic?

 
I think I do agree with this. I think there are "bad" and "good" things one can do with magic. (Which in itself changes depending on ones ethical framework and situations) but I don't think magic itself can be bad or good or black or white.

I kind of think of its in the same way electricity can't be bad or good, its a thing that can both be used to nurture and to devastate and all things in between but it has no moral properties itself.
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Demeter Hedgewitch

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2014, 10:38:49 am »
Quote from: Jake_;151755
I think I do agree with this. I think there are "bad" and "good" things one can do with magic. (Which in itself changes depending on ones ethical framework and situations) but I don't think magic itself can be bad or good or black or white.

I kind of think of its in the same way electricity can't be bad or good, its a thing that can both be used to nurture and to devastate and all things in between but it has no moral properties itself.

 
Same thing with fire. It can be both good and bad. Sex, is the same. You can have sex and have the most amazing experience in your life or you can have sex and get a nasty disease and die. I think, and this is from my years in the craft, that people tend to label things black and white, and not really see that magic is magic. It's not good and it's not bad, it's just is.

veggiewolf

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2014, 10:41:15 am »
Quote from: Demeter Hedgewitch;151750
I know that I most likely haven't posted this in the right section and I'm sorry. But someone told me that there's no such thing as black and white magic, their the same. Do you agree with this? Is there such a thing as black and white magic?

 
There's nothing wrong with having posted this topic in this section. :)

I, personally, don't categorize magic into black/white, red/green, or evil/good.  Magic is a tool and can be used in a variety of ways but it has no inherent moral value (much like a hammer).

To paraphrase from another example that's well-known: magic doesn't hurt people; people hurt people.
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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2014, 10:59:58 am »
Quote from: Demeter Hedgewitch;151750
I know that I most likely haven't posted this in the right section and I'm sorry. But someone told me that there's no such thing as black and white magic, their the same. Do you agree with this? Is there such a thing as black and white magic?

I view magic in the same way I view a belt knife such as Norwegians carry with them on forest strolls: knives are tools. There is no value judgement to be made about tools. They simply are. It's what you do with them and why you do it that potentially brings about any sort of value judgement.

Hack at a tree with you knife? Maybe the branch is diseased. Maybe you're a vandal. Maybe you need wood for a campfire. Maybe you need to make a splint for your broken leg. Maybe you're blazing a trail (aka: trailmarking) for others to follow later.

Maybe you have to defend yourself from someone accosting you in the forest. Maybe you're killing an animal for whatever reason. Maybe you're cutting the sandwich in your packed lunch.

The knife is still a knife no matter which of these situations you might use it in.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 11:02:02 am by Allaya »
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Darkhawk

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2014, 11:54:23 am »
Quote from: Demeter Hedgewitch;151750
I know that I most likely haven't posted this in the right section and I'm sorry. But someone told me that there's no such thing as black and white magic, their the same. Do you agree with this? Is there such a thing as black and white magic?

 
"White magic is poetry.  Black magic is anything that works."  - Victor Anderson
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Merin

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2014, 02:08:46 pm »
Quote from: Demeter Hedgewitch;151750
I know that I most likely haven't posted this in the right section and I'm sorry. But someone told me that there's no such thing as black and white magic, their the same. Do you agree with this? Is there such a thing as black and white magic?

 
Magic is not black or white (or really any color).  It just is.  Some say magic has everything to do with intention, but that is not always the case.  There are many factors that go into performing magic and spells.

Tay Redgrave

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2014, 04:42:18 pm »
Quote from: Demeter Hedgewitch;151750
I know that I most likely haven't posted this in the right section and I'm sorry. But someone told me that there's no such thing as black and white magic, their the same. Do you agree with this? Is there such a thing as black and white magic?
I agree with it. See, for me, the terms "black magic" and "white magic" feel like they put morality in something (magic) that really shouldn't have the concept applied to it.

An example of what I mean is, black magic can be used by others to indicate "evil" magic, like something that isn't really for the benefit of others and for selfish purposes to put it simply, but this might not be "evil" to someone else. Likewise, white magic can be used by others to indicate "good" magic, things that benefit others and are for selfless purposes, but this might not be "good" to someone else.

But then, my view on the idea and notion of good and evil being subjective does influence how I view and understand the notions of black and white magic. I think that's something one should keep in mind about black and white magic: that one's views on morality may impact how they classify black and white magic. They're not wrong if they classify it, but you're also not wrong if you don't classify it. Magic is magic to some and magic can be black or white to some.

My two cents, of course.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 04:45:17 pm by Tay Redgrave »

catja6

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2014, 06:05:16 pm »
Quote from: Demeter Hedgewitch;151750
I know that I most likely haven't posted this in the right section and I'm sorry. But someone told me that there's no such thing as black and white magic, their the same. Do you agree with this? Is there such a thing as black and white magic?

 
In general, I tend to go with the "magic is a tool, neither intrinsically good or evil any more than hammers or electricity are."

But I think there's some nuances: this isn't, like, fully thought out for me, really, but I do think that there are some ways of doing magic, regardless of intent or purpose of the spell, that skew into BAD territory.

Like, for example any spell that would require you to torture an animal to death, regardless of the actual purpose of the spell, is going to create some ugly shit. To make it more mundane: there's a difference between electricity generated by wind turbines or hydro power than, like, electricity generated by forcing slaves to run on a treadmill or something. (I'm not sure how electricity is generated, can you tell? :D)

We live in a late-capitalist society in which exploitation is built into the system, and there's no such thing as anything that's 100% clean and pure or whatever (if there ever was). But we make choices about what we do and ALSO about how we do it. I don't believe that intent=everything: what you DO also matters, and saying it's for a "positive" purpose doesn't, like, somehow wipe out the actual actions you take.

Sefiru

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2014, 06:33:26 pm »
Quote from: Lokadyne;151827
I agree with it. See, for me, the terms "black magic" and "white magic" feel like they put morality in something (magic) that really shouldn't have the concept applied to it.

 
My thoughts are kind of tangent to this -- there are systems of magic or energy that define two different types of power, but in other pairs than moral/immoral.

Yin and Yang being the best known (as far as I know).

Also there was one fictional setting (I forget which series) that had a division between magic affecting animate and inanimate targets.

Medieval European medicine had cold/hot and wet/dry. I am sure there are more examples.
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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2014, 06:11:05 pm »
Quote from: catja6;151839
But I think there's some nuances: this isn't, like, fully thought out for me, really, but I do think that there are some ways of doing magic, regardless of intent or purpose of the spell, that skew into BAD territory.

Like, for example any spell that would require you to torture an animal to death, regardless of the actual purpose of the spell, is going to create some ugly shit. To make it more mundane: there's a difference between electricity generated by wind turbines or hydro power than, like, electricity generated by forcing slaves to run on a treadmill or something. (I'm not sure how electricity is generated, can you tell? :D)

We live in a late-capitalist society in which exploitation is built into the system, and there's no such thing as anything that's 100% clean and pure or whatever (if there ever was). But we make choices about what we do and ALSO about how we do it. I don't believe that intent=everything: what you DO also matters, and saying it's for a "positive" purpose doesn't, like, somehow wipe out the actual actions you take.

 
I think this is a really good point, catja. I too fall into the "magic is neutral" camp on this issue ('black' magic just seems to be whatever one group doesn't like) but I agree that certain actions definitely create a much messier psychic residue.

Mivi

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2014, 03:29:16 pm »
Quote from: Demeter Hedgewitch;151750
I know that I most likely haven't posted this in the right section and I'm sorry. But someone told me that there's no such thing as black and white magic, their the same. Do you agree with this? Is there such a thing as black and white magic?

 I'm in the camp that these terms are based in racism. Even if they weren't, I wouldn't agree with it anyway. Magic is magic is magic. All that changes is the intent with it.
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Demeter Hedgewitch

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2014, 05:07:26 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;151769
"White magic is poetry.  Black magic is anything that works."  - Victor Anderson

 
Love the quote.

Darkhawk

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2014, 06:52:12 pm »
Quote from: Mivi;152043
I'm in the camp that these terms are based in racism.

 
Which makes me want to link a blog post that references that, in part.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Scales

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2014, 12:11:30 am »
Quote from: Demeter Hedgewitch;151750
I know that I most likely haven't posted this in the right section and I'm sorry. But someone told me that there's no such thing as black and white magic, their the same. Do you agree with this? Is there such a thing as black and white magic?


I don't think we could categorize many types of magic (or things in general) into 'good' or 'bad,' which is how black and white are usually used, so no. I do sort of understand it as a means of categorizing (eg I've seen black: divination, spells on other people, ambitious stuff, white: blessings, creativity, self-growth (basically slytherin/ravenclaw vs gryffindor/hufflepuff)), but even then, 90% of what I do/see people do falls in between those.

I think this also relates to what people believe in as far as deities, demons, fae, etc. If you believe there are entities that do/are evil, I think it's easier to categorize magic that way. I don't believe that personally, but if I think about it that way, I can see it.

Now to read the thread and see if I'm repeating everyone else or if I'm way off the mark.

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