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Author Topic: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.  (Read 5243 times)

Emma Eldritch

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2014, 11:05:43 pm »
Quote from: random417;153589
Sure, some of this may be things you or other members already know, but I'll cover it just in case.

The practice of evocation, or summoning spirits, usually demons, to a visible appearance, had it's hayday mostly in the Middle Ages, but the roots of the practice comes from Assyrian practices of calling forth gods, both benevelant and not so benevelant. Part of the process uses a sigil specifically designed for the spirit in question, mostly to get them there. Then the spirits name is used to command them, usually by the power of a stronger God. The sigil gets them there, and the name keeps you safe.

The problem I have with the Simon Necronomicon, is that the sigils used can be traced back to Assyrian spirits, but then some (although not all) of the names don't match up with the spirits that the sigils summon. In most cases, because you're looking for a different spirit than the one represented by the spirit, you won't get much of anything. When you do however manage to evoke a spirit, you won't have the spirits name, and so it would be very easy to loose control, and worse, some ways of banishing it won't work.

Some people claim a botched evocation like this drove Crowley insane. I think the syphilis helped, but it does illustrate the types of dangers.

 
While I totally understand what you're getting at, I have to say I've yet to come across anyone who was seriously hurt by that dumbshit book. The Simon Necronomicon has been in print since the late 70s, and nobody but hardcore Christians have ever seemed to have a problem with it. If it was really driving people nuts by accidentally summoning real entities, wouldn't some metalheads or chaos magicians have spoken up in esoteric circles by now?

Then again, maybe they have and I've just never heard of it.

endlessGalaxy

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2014, 11:13:34 pm »
Quote from: random417;153589
Sure, some of this may be things you or other members already know, but I'll cover it just in case.

The practice of evocation, or summoning spirits, usually demons, to a visible appearance, had it's hayday mostly in the Middle Ages, but the roots of the practice comes from Assyrian practices of calling forth gods, both benevelant and not so benevelant. Part of the process uses a sigil specifically designed for the spirit in question, mostly to get them there. Then the spirits name is used to command them, usually by the power of a stronger God. The sigil gets them there, and the name keeps you safe.

The problem I have with the Simon Necronomicon, is that the sigils used can be traced back to Assyrian spirits, but then some (although not all) of the names don't match up with the spirits that the sigils summon. In most cases, because you're looking for a different spirit than the one represented by the spirit, you won't get much of anything. When you do however manage to evoke a spirit, you won't have the spirits name, and so it would be very easy to loose control, and worse, some ways of banishing it won't work.

Some people claim a botched evocation like this drove Crowley insane. I think the syphilis helped, but it does illustrate the types of dangers.

 
I just did a quick Google search - the Necronomicon I'm talking about is a compilation of Lovecraft's works, but I see now there is another "Necronomicon" by Peter Levenda?  Is this the alleged grimoire?

Emma Eldritch

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2014, 11:33:15 pm »
Quote from: endlessGalaxy;153605
I just did a quick Google search - the Necronomicon I'm talking about is a compilation of Lovecraft's works, but I see now there is another "Necronomicon" by Peter Levenda?  Is this the alleged grimoire?

 
According to Google, he is 'Simon' who penned the bullshit grimoire, yup.

random417

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2014, 12:00:25 am »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;153603
While I totally understand what you're getting at, I have to say I've yet to come across anyone who was seriously hurt by that dumbshit book. The Simon Necronomicon has been in print since the late 70s, and nobody but hardcore Christians have ever seemed to have a problem with it. If it was really driving people nuts by accidentally summoning real entities, wouldn't some metalheads or chaos magicians have spoken up in esoteric circles by now?

Then again, maybe they have and I've just never heard of it.

Poke Runnion, who pioneered the method of using mirrors for evocation that we think of as universal mentions it in his podcast at least. Might be in his Soloman's Magick book as well, but I don't feel like digging out my copy. Donald Kraig went out of his way to say the book was dangerous, but didn't specify how.

 It's a rare danger, mostly due to the types the book usually attracts. The metalhead crowd as a whole lacks the magical chops to make it work, and the chaos magick crowd is obsessive about research, and likely to discover that themselves.

I think it fails 99 times out of 100, partially due to lack of ability/training, and partially because cobbling together a sigil with a different entity concept seems inherently unstable.

The one time there, would likely be with a more experienced evoker, which means they're more likely to keep control. Then you add that people rarely talk about failed magick, and the stigma attached to mental problems, and I'm not surprised it's not talked about much.

To be fair, I don't personally know anybody hurt by the book either. I just see what could be there.
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

AL 1:42-44

Emma Eldritch

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2014, 12:02:44 am »
Quote from: random417;153608
Poke Runnion, who pioneered the method of using mirrors for evocation that we think of as universal mentions it in his podcast at least. Might be in his Soloman's Magick book as well, but I don't feel like digging out my copy. Donald Kraig went out of his way to say the book was dangerous, but didn't specify how.

 It's a rare danger, mostly due to the types the book usually attracts. The metalhead crowd as a whole lacks the magical chops to make it work, and the chaos magick crowd is obsessive about research, and likely to discover that themselves.

I think it fails 99 times out of 100, partially due to lack of ability/training, and partially because cobbling together a sigil with a different entity concept seems inherently unstable.

The one time there, would likely be with a more experienced evoker, which means they're more likely to keep control. Then you add that people rarely talk about failed magick, and the stigma attached to mental problems, and I'm not surprised it's not talked about much.

To be fair, I don't personally know anybody hurt by the book either. I just see what could be there.

 
So when we consider all of that, it starts to look like your chances are pretty slim. Sort of like winning a very bizarre and shitty lottery, eh?

The not-talking-about-failures is a funny thing, isn't it?

random417

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2014, 01:04:26 am »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;153609
So when we consider all of that, it starts to look like your chances are pretty slim. Sort of like winning a very bizarre and shitty lottery, eh?

The not-talking-about-failures is a funny thing, isn't it?
Chances are slim, but so are your chances of being in a plane crash. I still refuse to fly. Honestly, maybe I'm the overly cautious type.

Not talking about magical failures I THINK comes down to how we're (or at least I was) taught not to think about them. When you're first starting with magick, it creates doubt in your abilities, which can affect future spells. Most of us never outgrow those particular "training wheels". I really haven't myself. Plus there's the culture that's developed in magical circles. A whole list of unwritten rules of etiquette. Things you do, and things you don't do, much of which is never spelled out anywhere.
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

AL 1:42-44

endlessGalaxy

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2014, 03:22:27 pm »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;153606
According to Google, he is 'Simon' who penned the bullshit grimoire, yup.


Ahh, the wheels are turning now.  I remember an old boyfriend trying to get his hands on a copy of it and being all like "omggggz they don't ever sell the whole thing in bookstores omgggg".  Probably why I was so confused when I got Lovecraft's Necronomicon.

Emma Eldritch

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2014, 10:47:15 pm »
Quote from: random417;153613
Chances are slim, but so are your chances of being in a plane crash. I still refuse to fly. Honestly, maybe I'm the overly cautious type.

Not talking about magical failures I THINK comes down to how we're (or at least I was) taught not to think about them. When you're first starting with magick, it creates doubt in your abilities, which can affect future spells. Most of us never outgrow those particular "training wheels". I really haven't myself. Plus there's the culture that's developed in magical circles. A whole list of unwritten rules of etiquette. Things you do, and things you don't do, much of which is never spelled out anywhere.

 
Do you not drive, out of idle curiosity?

I honestly think a lot of ti is ego. Most people don't want to brag about how they totally botched a working. XD

random417

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2014, 11:34:13 pm »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;153662
Do you not drive, out of idle curiosity?


I don't really mind driving, for some reason. I avoid it when I can, but that's cuz gas is 4 bucks a gallon now, not out of fear.
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

AL 1:42-44

Emma Eldritch

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2014, 02:16:48 am »
Quote from: random417;153663
I don't really mind driving, for some reason. I avoid it when I can, but that's cuz gas is 4 bucks a gallon now, not out of fear.

 
But you're more likely to get into a car crash than a plane accident, no?

random417

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2014, 11:48:22 am »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;153773
But you're more likely to get into a car crash than a plane accident, no?
Yes, I guess the difference there is I'm actually the one driving. I don't get to fly the plane myself. I feel more in control.
"Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is in every way perfect."

AL 1:42-44

Qumran Taj

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Re: Black and White Magic? Your opinion.
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2014, 06:46:37 am »
Quote from: Demeter Hedgewitch;151750
I know that I most likely haven't posted this in the right section and I'm sorry. But someone told me that there's no such thing as black and white magic, their the same. Do you agree with this? Is there such a thing as black and white magic?


The short answer is NO. So-called "White" and "Black" magick are not the same- white and black speak to the intent of the working.  Magick is the same impersonal force active in BOTH Black and White Magick.  If you want to see a longer discussion of this you can visit my blog post of July 16th, 2014 at http://wizardqumran.wordpress.com/
"The ultimate secret to magickal power is to know that you have it" ~Qumran Taj http://www.qumrantaj.com

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